Pardons for sale: Trump, Jared Kushner, Alan Dershowitz and the commutation of Jonathan Braun's sentence

[Saint_Cad]

@Horatius

Except in one case, the argument is being made by an idiot trying to avoid a parking ticket, and in the other, it’s being made by an idiot trying to avoid being persecuted for all that treason he committed while being president.

I am not wrong. One is a person that believes they deserve all of the rights and protection of the government and Constitution while not having to be subject to obeying the law. The other is a Sovereign Citizen.

[Horatius]

Yes, but the one is being taken seriously by one whole political party and not a few judges, so that makes his arguments more of a problem. In a sane world, he would have been slapped down as soon as he made this argument. In the real world, he’s got a non-zero chance of becoming president again.

[Stratocaster]

I got it, @Saint_Cad…

[ParallelLines]

@Pardel-Lux

Assuming it could be proven to the satisfaction of a competent tribunal after due process that one concrete case of pardon was granted for money, and assuming further that the former president is immune from prosecution for corruption during his tenure, could the intermediaries be prosecuted? I am thinking in the case the article refers to primarely of Mr. Dershowitz and Mr. Kushner, but there probably were others too.

Now that we’ve argued about the difficulty of amending the constitution or persuading the courts that a particular pardon should be voided, did anyone have feedback on this point? Overall, I agree that especially with the current SCOTUS that any such nullification is extremely unlikely, but felt that a good discission could be held on @Pardel-Lux’s last point.

But I don’t know if there is any existing law that specifically targets handling fees as it were for actions that are technically legal (such as a pardon). Sure, perhaps some form of undue influence, and the section I quoted requires us to assume that “it could be proven to the satisfaction of a competent tribunal after due process” which is a heavy lift given existing lawsuits, but that’s the hypothetical.

[flurb]

@Saint_Cad

I always thought the question was could he be prosecuted for official actions as President. Like if the President authorized the FBI to raid a compound in Texas and innocent people died, could you prosecute him for conspiracy to commit murder, violating victim civil rights, etc. Certainly walking up to a guy and shooting him in the face would be prosecutable.

In Nixon v Fitzgerald, the Supreme Court ruled that the president has absolute immunity from civil actions regarding conduct within the “outer perimeter” of their duties. However, the court also stated in its ruling that the President is not immune from criminal charges stemming from his official or unofficial acts committed while he is in office.

[PastTense]

More recently:

A convicted New York drug dealer and predatory lender who walked free from a 10-year federal prison sentence after it was commuted in 2021 by then-President Donald Trump has been arrested for allegedly assaulting his wife and her father, court records show.

Jonathan Braun, 41, is charged in Nassau County, Long Island, court with assaulting his 75-year-old father-in-law on Tuesday by punching him twice in the face with a closed fist as he was trying to protect his daughter from Braun, who is her husband.

New York drug dealer whose prison sentence Trump commuted arrested on assault...

And in February:

Braun was fined $20 million in February by Manhattan federal court Judge Jed Rakoff in a civil case where the Federal Trade Commission had sued Braun for predatory lending practices. “The evidence … shows that Mr. Braun not only personally participated in this illegal conduct, but did so gleefully, with little remorse,” Rakoff wrote in a ruling, which cited emails Braun had sent about the loans.

[DWMarch]

Sounds like quite a fella. I wonder which Cabinet position he would be offered in a second Trump administration?

[Pardel-Lux]

Ah, Mr. Braun again! It was his case that made me start this thread. Plus ça change…

[Horatius]

@DWMarch

I wonder which Cabinet position he would be offered in a second Trump administration?

It’s not a cabinet position, but I’m sure Trump would think he’s got what it takes to run the Office on Violence Against Women.

“Wait; They’re against that?!?”

[Pardel-Lux]

@flurb

If a President were found to have issued a pardon as part of a criminal act (i.e. being bribed), he could be criminally prosecuted. Would the pardon itself still stand? Hard to say how the courts would find.

@flurb

(the SC has never explicitly ruled whether the President can be criminally prosecuted for acts in office)

That was then, today the President would only have to argue that the pardon was part of his official duties and that would confer him immunity as per one recent decision of the SCOTUS. Therefore, in my interpretation of the underlying logic, the pardon would stand. And the disproportion between the Legislative and the Judicial powers, on one hand, and the Executive on the other has grown.

@ParallelLines

Now that we’ve argued about the difficulty of amending the constitution or persuading the courts that a particular pardon should be voided, did anyone have feedback on this point? Overall, I agree that especially with the current SCOTUS that any such nullification is extremely unlikely, but felt that a good discission could be held on @Pardel-Lux’s last point.

That is a point worth reiterating. Thanks, ParallelLines!

[Jackmannii]

All this time, and no theme song for the thread?

The Gitch Your Own Band - Pardon Me Ray

[ParallelLines]

@Pardel-Lux

That was then, today the President would only have to argue that the pardon was part of his official duties and that would confer him immunity as per one recent decision of the SCOTUS. Therefore, in my interpretation of the underlying logic, the pardon would stand.

Or that if the bribe, I mean "gratuity’ happened after the pardon, that’s all fine and dandy, due to a different ruling…