# Parental Consent for Medical Treatment & Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708 "2003-05-22T01:35:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/61 "2003-05-24T21:09:07Z")
How far does this so-called “right” go, anyway? Can you force your kid to carry a baby that threatens her life? Can you force her to have cosmetic surgery? Could you artificially inpregnate your daughter with the guy next door’s sperm and make her bear the child? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/62 "2003-05-24T21:11:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*When you have the greatest stake in the decision, then you get to decide. That doesn’t include whether or not a baby comes out of someone else, **Bob**. Or would you also say it’s perfectly OK for you to force the 14 year-old girl to be a mother, get married, and drop out of high school because your ‘right’ as a parent is to make bad decisions that will do nothing but damage to someone’s future? \*\* You can continue to ignore my point, but it remains the same: Parental rights do not exist because they are guaranteed to lead to good decisions, or only up to the point where the child agrees with them. Children don’t get to decide major decisions because they are children. Children lack the maturity that would allow this. It’s not that difficult a concept. The fact that some want to take very specific decisions and remove them from the province of parental authority is a testament to their commitment to keep those decisions unencumbered rights, despite the fact that they are not qualitatively different from many, many decisions a parent can and does make for his/her children, despite the fact that no other right seems to warrant such protection. It is, IMO, a politically motivated abandoment of simple logic. Someone can be pro-choice and still believe abortion should require parental consent, it seems to me, but I also understand that’s not the party line. Abortion rights must be completely unrestricted, or else we’re fascists (and despite the fact that Roe v. Wade did not provide for unrestricted abortion rights). ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/63 "2003-05-24T21:17:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philly Style \* > \*\*Why do I lose all parental rights if my child chooses to abort? Around here, a sixteen year old can’t get her ears pierced without the parent’s approval. If she wants an abortion, strangers will hide the fact from the parents at the minor’s request. > > How, in anyone’s opinion, can this be considered just and fair? \*\* You stand this issue on it’s head when you focus on the medical proceedure. What is at issue is the young woman’s right to choose whether or not to become a mother. Even if the baby is put up for adoption, she will be a mother for life. It is her right to choose that. Not her parent’s. If the parents have abrogated their responsibility in preventing their daughter from becoming pregnant in the first place, or if the child has been awarded the maturity rights to accomplish this feat, she is likewise given the right to choose. Young or not, the issue is still a woman’s right to choose. OTOH, if you are appalled by the proceedure which you deem as painful and dangerous, you have an excellent reason to lobby for unrestricted sales of RU-486 over the counter to minors. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/64 "2003-05-24T21:22:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*How far does this so-called “right” go, anyway? Can you force your kid to carry a baby that threatens her life? \*\*What do you mean by “threaten”? Any pregnancy carries risk. > [@](#): > > \*\*Can you force her to have cosmetic surgery? \*\*Maybe. I can decide my child will have cosmetic surgery after an accident, for example. Hopefully the child agrees, but that’s not necessary. > [@](#): > > \*\*Could you artificially inpregnate your daughter with the guy next door’s sperm and make her bear the child? \*\* IMO, this falls under the “inherently abusive” umbrella. It is tantemount to rape. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/65 "2003-05-24T21:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by frithrah \* > **Young or not, the issue is still a woman’s right to choose.** No, the issue is why children get this particular right to choose to the exclusion of most others. Why? Because it’s the party line. The right to abortions must be unrestricted. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/66 "2003-05-24T21:36:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*No, the issue is why children get this particular right to choose to the exclusion of most others. Why? Because it’s the party line. The right to abortions must be unrestricted. \*\* Okay, but the facts are that in most states there _is no discrepency_ between a minors’ decision to abort and a minors’ right to make other major medical decisions. Additionally, many that are argueing for minors to have access to abortion are arguing that they should also reserve the right to make- under the supervision of a doctor and perhaps a judge- to make other medical decisions that have life-changeing implications. So your argument is without bounds. We might as well argue why the state gets to draw crosses on all of our forheads and not the sign of the invisible pink unicorn, The fact that so many of you see your own children as some combination of pets and slaves is appalling. ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/67 "2003-05-24T21:36:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*No, the issue is why children get this particular right to choose to the exclusion of most others. \*\* Does she have the right to have sex Bob? If you think she does than you must agree she has a right to make decisions regarding the outcome of her actions. If you think she doesn’t, then you, or excuse me, the parent, has failed the responsibility of preventing it. Obviously she has matured to a point where her own decision making has taken precedent over your dictums. Inotherwords, she has developed her own identity and become an adult capable of making her own decisions. They leave the nest Bob. Its OK. We may bring them into the world, but we don’t own them. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/68 "2003-05-24T21:46:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by frithrah \* > \*\*Does she have the right to have sex Bob? > If you think she does than you must agree she has a right to make decisions regarding the outcome of her actions. > If you think she doesn’t, then you, or excuse me, the parent, has failed the responsibility of preventing it. Obviously she has matured to a point where her own decision making has taken precedent over your dictums. Inotherwords, she has developed her own identity and become an adult capable of making her own decisions. They leave the nest Bob. Its OK. We may bring them into the world, but we don’t own them. \*\* Oh, Christ. Um, you understand that under typical circumstances, by the time they leave the nest my point is moot? And that this particular milestone is not relevant to this debate? I will repeat yet again that I am not asserting that all parental decisions are guaranteed to be good ones. Whether or not the parent could have prevented the pregnancy through some different choices does not lead us to conclude that his/her authority has somehow evaporated. Do you believe that any time a child makes a poor choice that means the parent has ceded their authority? If my kid plays hooky do I no longer have the authority to send him to school? It’s not that difficult a concept. Children don’t get to decide for themselves. Why? Because they’re children. If you want to exclude one very particular decision from this arena, please explain why. Here’s a hint: Citing offspring leaving the nest won’t help your case. ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/69 "2003-05-24T21:49:41Z")
So does she have a right to have sex? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/70 "2003-05-24T21:53:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*Okay, but the facts are that in most states there _is no discrepency_ between a minors’ decision to abort and a minors’ right to make other major medical decisions. Additionally, many that are argueing for minors to have access to abortion are arguing that they should also reserve the right to make- under the supervision of a doctor and perhaps a judge- to make other medical decisions that have life-changeing implications. So your argument is without bounds. We might as well argue why the state gets to draw crosses on all of our forheads and not the sign of the invisible pink unicorn, > > The fact that so many of you see your own children as some combination of pets and slaves is appalling. \*\* No, your strawman is what’s appalling. If you conclude that my enormous concern for my child’s welfare equates with seeing him as a pet or slave, you need to look inward for where the flaw lies. That you think my argument is tantemount to allowing the state to exceed its rights regarding “crosses” and “unicorns” is also a rather glaring non sequitur. Do you really see me arguing for the state’s increased right to interfere in our lives? I will also ask for a cite that shows that most states allow parental rights to be abrogated as it relates to major medical decisions for their children, in the manner you describe. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/71 "2003-05-24T21:59:17Z")
Ever hear of the case of Spring Adams? She was a thirteen-year-old girl in Idaho who was shot to death by her father after he learned she planned to end a pregnancy he himself had caused. That’s why minors should get abortions without parental knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/72 "2003-05-24T22:00:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by frithrah \* > \*\*So does she have a right to have sex? \*\* Really think you have a “gotcha” here, don’t you? OK, I’ll bite. No, she does not have that right. Just as she does not have the right to stay out past 10:00 if her parents want her home by then. Just as she doesn’t have the right to eat at McDonald’s if her parents believe it’s unhealthy (and forbid it). Just as it is in the countless other situations where the parent gets to decide what is best for the child. Is your point that children sometimes ignore their parents direction? If so…um, OK. ---
**Author:** ![irishbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishbird)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/73 "2003-05-24T22:04:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Sorry you had such an awful mother, but excuse me if I don’t use your experience to conclude that everyone else’s parental rights ought to be effectively abolished as they relate to certain very specific decisions that interest our children and us. \*\* Yeah, and so am I but I am also a parent and my experiences probably made me a better parent. I allowed my child to have choices and discussed the conequences of certain actions. Of course I am in a position to overrule - to a degree - but our kids are people in their own right and at that age are quite capable of weighing up the pros and cons for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/74 "2003-05-24T22:04:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Ever hear of the case of Spring Adams? She was a thirteen-year-old girl in Idaho who was shot to death by her father after he learned she planned to end a pregnancy he himself had caused. > > That’s why minors should get abortions without parental knowledge. \*\* You’re kidding, right? A single cite of perhaps the most awful example of parental abuse one can imagine is reason enough to abolish parental authority for everyone else in the nation. OK. Now I see the light. If I can provide a cite showing some parent killed a kid for violating curfew, will you agree that this should also be removed from the province of parental authority?:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/75 "2003-05-24T22:06:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by irishbird \* > \*\*Yeah, and so am I but I am also a parent and my experiences probably made me a better parent. I allowed my child to have choices and discussed the conequences of certain actions. Of course I am in a position to overrule - to a degree - but our kids are people in their own right and at that age are quite capable of weighing up the pros and cons for themselves. \*\* irishbird, I respect your right to raise your children in a manner that allows them to make the decisions _you_ think they are capable of making. Can you respect my choice to do the same? ---
**Author:** ![irishbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishbird)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/76 "2003-05-24T22:19:45Z")
yeah, don’t take it personally Bob. You don’t need anyone’s opinion on how to raise kids:) ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/77 "2003-05-24T22:39:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*You’re kidding, right? A single cite of perhaps the most awful example of parental abuse one can imagine is reason enough to abolish parental authority for everyone else in the nation. If a girl wants to keep a pregnancy and abortion from her parents, there is probably a **very** good reason for doing so. Most teenagers would seek out their parents help. If they are too terrified to do so I wouldn’t second guess them and force them to tell, because I believe in this particular instance the harm outweighs the good. ---
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/78 "2003-05-24T22:43:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Really think you have a “gotcha” here, don’t you? OK, I’ll bite. > > No, she does not have that right. Just as she does not have the right to stay out past 10:00 if her parents want her home by then. Just as she doesn’t have the right to eat at McDonald’s if her parents believe it’s unhealthy (and forbid it). Just as it is in the countless other situations where the parent gets to decide what is best for the child.\*\* Sorry. It wasn’t so much a “Gotcha.” I just wanted to get a firm grasp on where you stood. We just differ in opinion. I think a parent has a duty, responsibility and an obligation to guide and Shepard hir child as best they can from birth onward as long as possible and well into adulthood. And of course that means imposing restrictions for minors. But I also feel that all sentient beings are individuals with full rights be it you or a 5 year old, within the law of course. I may fence and leash my dog to protect him. It doesn’t mean he doesn’t have the “right” to dig a hole under the fence if I let the water bowl go dry. To act dictorially and subconsciously imply otherwise I don’t believe promotes healthy psychological development and certainly not your relationship to your children. It also opens the door for say, female genital mutilation in a country where it is culturally acceptable. Or as someone had pointed out, a Christian Scientists parent’s ability to stop an appendectomy because their child has no “right” to make that decision themselves. Rights are inalienable. Late teens also have the right to emancipate. That in and of itself should show you that the law can bestow on them full control of their destiny. Not just some party line Roe V Wade token rule as you imply ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/79 "2003-05-24T23:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*If a girl wants to keep a pregnancy and abortion from her parents, there is probably a very good reason for doing so. Most teenagers would seek out their parents help. > > If they are too terrified to do so I wouldn’t second guess them and force them to tell, because I believe in this particular instance the harm outweighs the good. \*\* You may exercise this leniency with your own children. I do not cede that authority for my own. And why do you assume there is a good reason for a child to keep this from her parents? Children keep all kinds of things from their parents, for all kinds of reasons. Forgive me, but I see your position as a rationale for abortion rights to be completely unrestricted, despite the fact that the same rationale could be applied to virtually any restriction a parent might impose. You have yet to provide an argument that supports why abortion, out of all rights, ought to be an exception to parental authority. Because “there’s probably a very good reason” is, frankly, laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/80 "2003-05-24T23:28:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by irishbird \* > \*\*yeah, don’t take it personally Bob. You don’t need anyone’s opinion on how to raise kids:) \*\* Well, I appreciate your response, but that’s the very essense of the debate here. There are many, including people participating in this very thread, who would not respect my right to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708.md?page=5)