# Parental Consent for Medical Treatment & Abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 22, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708 "2003-05-22T01:35:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![frithrah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ad7895/32.png) [@frithrah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frithrah)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/101 "2003-05-25T17:17:53Z")
Beagle, Try holding your thumb next to your line in the script, that way you won’t get confused. I’m sure Doreen can defend her own remarks, but I had to point this out: \*\*Bob Cos-it seems to me that a 15-year-old who just gave birth is in no position to make decisions for the child she just gave birth to. For the same exact reason that she couldn’t prior to the birth for herself. Because she is still a child. By definition, she cannot exert parental authority–i.e., the ability to make mature decisions for another. \*\* doreen **By definition, she is a parent,** Beagle \*\*Now you’re telling me that the pregnant woman is automatically a “parent”. \*\* She’s was speaking of post partum ---
**Author:** ![istara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e79b87/32.png) [@istara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/istara)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/102 "2003-05-25T18:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*\*\*It seizes the parent’s right to know what medical treatment his/her child will receive. It is the state determining that what is best is to leave parents out of a circumstance the parent may just consider important enough to warrant his/her attention. No, it does not. Being an adult does (or it is at least presumed). IANAL, and am consequently unfamilar with the myriad laws that would govern this, but it seems to me that a 15-year-old who just gave birth is in no position to make decisions for the child she just gave birth to. For the same exact reason that she couldn’t prior to the birth for herself. Because she is still a child. By definition, she cannot exert parental authority–i.e., the ability to make mature decisions for another. \*\* Basically, you’ve trapped her then. She’s been forced to carry a child to term, now she doesn’t even get to make decisions for that child. I realise you want to act in the best interests of your child. But with something like pregnancy - which let’s face it, is going to affect her ENTIRE life - surely the best course of action - **particularly if you hold strong personal or moral beliefs EITHER way** - is to send her to an appropriate counseller AND doctor, and let her decide with them what the best course of action is. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/103 "2003-05-25T19:31:28Z")
> [@](#): > > No, it does not. Being an adult does (or it is at least presumed). IANAL, and am consequently unfamilar with the myriad laws that would govern this, but it seems to me that a 15-year-old who just gave birth is in no position to make decisions for the child she just gave birth to. In the Great State of Oregon, if you are a parent, regardless of your age, you are deemed competant to make decisions for your child. > [@](#): > > Oregon Revised Statutes > > 109.112 Mother, father or putative father deemed to have attained majority. The mother, father or putative father of a child shall be deemed to have attained majority and, regardless of age, may give authorizations, releases or waivers, or enter into agreements, in adoption, juvenile court, filiation or other proceedings concerning the care or custody of the child. > [@](#): > > For the same exact reason that she couldn’t prior to the birth for herself. Because she is still a child. By definition, she cannot exert parental authority–i.e., the ability to make mature decisions for another. Wrong. She can make decisions. She can exert parental authority. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/104 "2003-05-25T21:21:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by frithrah \* > \*\* > She’s was speaking of post partum \*\* My confusion. Apologies to doreen. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/105 "2003-05-25T22:01:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*If a girl wants to keep a pregnancy and abortion from her parents, there is probably a very good reason for doing so. \*\* Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. Who is to know what the parents’ reaction will be when they’re not given the opportunity to have one? And a teen in a position of having done something that she knows will (at the very least) be very disappointing to her parents is probably not the best judge of just what their response will be If the parents have been abusive, then I can see keeping them entirely out of the process. But even parents who have made “promises” that a girl who “came home pregnant” would be kicked out of the house can realize that this isn’t a good solution to the situation when it becomes something more than a “what if.” > [@](#): > > \*\*Most teenagers would seek out their parents help. \*\* Exactly, and most parents – the vast majority of parents – work with those girls to find the solution which best suits her life. I think the question here actually becomes why it’s okay for parents to be taken completely out of the deliberation on this matter when they’re an integral part of any other. The judicial bypass process could still be sought when parents refuse to grant an okay for the procedure when the girl truly believes that it’s the best choice for her. If the idea of completely disallowing parents to _parent_ hadn’t been made law, I don’t believe that there’d be nearly so much opposition to the process. The fact that a very young girl can make this decision, go to a judge, spin out whatever tale she can make believable, go through the abortion procedure and her parents can be left completely in the dark about the entire thing is distressing to a lot of people on both sides of the abortion debate. The fact that there are parents who would be abusive to their daughters in such a scenario or parents who would make a decision based entirely on ideology as opposed to a reasonable study of what best suits the girl at the time in question should not mean that all parents are subject to being treated as though they’d fall into either of those categories. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by doreen_ > **Which brings me to the last difference. How can any one logically say that a 16 year old is incapable of making her own decision regarding an abortion and therefore allow her parents to decide she cannot, when that simply means that in a few months she will be making decisions on her ownabout whether to surrender the baby or keep it, and making medical decisions for the baby in the latter case?** Who said that 16 year olds are capable of making good decisions about those issues either? I can’t think of many women who gave up children in their teens who don’t bear a lot of regret or second thoughts about the situation. And frankly speaking, most teenage girls I’ve met who have chosen to keep their babies are fairly awful parents and they and their children would be in a world of hurt if the girls didn’t have their own parents (or some other adult[s]) to rely upon for all manner of support and advice. ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/106 "2003-05-25T23:36:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Don’t forget that giving birth to a child has serious potential health risks also. \*\* True, if you happen to live in Uganda. Get real. Using that as an argument would only hold up where medical care is still primative. The US isn’t number one in this area, but child birth is not really a major risk. ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/107 "2003-05-25T23:41:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Ninth Amendment: > > **The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.** > > Fourteenth Amendment: > > **No State shall… deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law** > > The Supreme Court said in Roe vs Wade: \*\* Apparently that does not equate to my liberty to raise my children as I see fit. Also, by sneaking behind my back, how is this not a clear violation of due process? It seems we selectively apply the standard when it suits a political agenda. ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2003, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/108 "2003-05-25T23:46:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by catsix \* > \*\*I > > Because I deserved better than to have someone decide for me that I had to get married and be a mother at 16 or 17 years old and probably not even finish high school. > > I would’ve done anything, including cross state lines or do it illegally to not have my parents involved in that one if I’d found myself accidentally pregnant and under 18. \*\* Didn’t you already demonstrate your inability to exercise sound judgment by becoming pregnant at 15 or 16? Didn’t your parents already decide a great deal of your fate by determining where you live, where you go to school, who your doctor is, what you eat, etc? Why is here that we assume that the judgment that has guided your entire life up to this point is now not to be trusted? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/109 "2003-05-26T00:10:38Z")
> [@](#): > > **Philly Style** said: > Didn’t you already demonstrate your inability to exercise sound judgment by becoming pregnant at 15 or 16? Didn’t your parents already decide a great deal of your fate by determining where you live, where you go to school, who your doctor is, what you eat, etc? I guess nobody in your world has ever gotten pregnant because they were raped. And my parents chose where we lived, but by the time I got to high school I had the final say in where I went to school, I chose my doctor, I decided what foods I’d eat, when I’d eat, etc. Lots of the choices I made then were quite different from the choices made by my parents because they made some piss poor choices. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/110 "2003-05-26T00:37:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philly Style \* > \*\*True, if you happen to live in Uganda. Get real. Using that as an argument would only hold up where medical care is still primative. Abortion might be a risky medical procedure, if you happen to live in Uganda. Get real. Using that as an argument would only hold up where medical care is still primative. > [@](#): > > \*\*The US isn’t number one in this area, but child birth is not really a major risk. \*\* What about compared to an abortion? Is one substantially more dangerous than the other? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/111 "2003-05-26T01:09:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by even sven \* > \*\*Besides, kids do all kinds of things without their parents permission, or against their parents permission. A kid can go to the all ages nighclub their parents told them not to go to, and it isn’t illegal. They won’t get arrested. They do not need a parents signature to get in. They might get in troble with their parents, but I’d say it is a strech to say their parents have a legal right to prevent them from going to nighclubs. \*\*Who said it was illegal? What exactly is your point here? A parent can tell his 12-year-old he is not to eat at McDonald’s after school, and that falls within the province of parental authority. Is it your impression I’m arguing the kid should be arrested if he’s found at McDonald’s? Try reading a little more closely. > [@](#): > > \*\*Okay, but my medical provider did not require parental consent for treating a flu, and did not allow my mother into the examination room for even mundane complaints. The child’s health comes before parental authority, and there is evidence that allowing parents in the exam room and having them approve all treatment can work against the child’s health interest. I don’t care about your “rights”. The childs right to health comes first. Always. \*\*Please provide that evidence. You are begging the question and closing with a “sound bite,” but you’re not actually offering an argument here. I am not arguing that my child’s health is not paramount. This is what we would call a straw man, here in GD. > [@](#): > > \*\*What exactly is this moral position? All I can see is a legal position- that people have a legal right to make medical decisions for themselves and abortion is one of those decisions. If you do not want abortion to be legal, please join one of the many anti-abortion movements. But using your whatever “logic” is convienent when trying to chip away at abortion instead of just stateing your oposition to it is dishonest. \*\*Where do you get off telling me I’m being dishonest? Where have I not answered a question directly? Where have I been inconsistent in my response? And more than that, why would my opposition to abortion make my position dishonest? It’s the very essense of my position, genius. I don’t want an abortion for my kid because I believe that ultimately it will be the worst option for her. I should get to decide. You want to disagree with that value? Fine. But keep your bullshit accusations to yourself. If you want to attack me for my pro-life beliefs, do so. Don’t _you_ be dishonest about it by doing it under the guise of defending “minor’s rights.” > [@](#): > > \*\*But, um, you don’t have that right. \*\*Wow, that’s as cogent an argument against my belief in that right as I have encountered. “Um, you don’t have that right.” Gotcha. Let’s close up the thread. > [@](#): > > \*\*This is not about me making any sort of decisions for your child. This is about your child making decisions for your child. I have no iterest in making your child have an abortion. I have every interest in allowing your child to make her own decision regarding abortion, not because I am an aboriton zealot, but because I was once a minor, and knew many minors during that time. > > ``` > I know that any decision I made regarding abortion at that time would have been the right one, and I know that my friends who did make those decisions ended up chooseing the same thing they would have as adults and do not regret their abiltity to make those decisions.** > > ``` Forgive me if I don’t base my child’s future on what you “know.” And please, please forgive me for my complete disregard of _your_ concern for _my_ children. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/112 "2003-05-26T01:12:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Wrong. She can make decisions. She can exert parental authority. \*\* That the law may permit something doesn’t mean it’s right. I believe your cite, but I personally find this enromously inconsistent. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/113 "2003-05-26T02:07:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Who said that 16 year olds are capable of making good decisions about those issues either? I can’t think of many women who gave up children in their teens who don’t bear a lot of regret or second thoughts about the situation. And frankly speaking, most teenage girls I’ve met who have chosen to keep their babies are fairly awful parents and they and their children would be in a world of hurt if the girls didn’t have their own parents (or some other adult[s]) to rely upon for all manner of support and advice. Didn’t say they will make good decisions- only that they will be the ones _making_ the decisions, not the baby’s grandparents. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/114 "2003-05-26T02:49:29Z")
> [@](#): > > ## originally posted by Bob Cos quote: > > ## Originally posted by Blalron Wrong. She can make decisions. She can exert parental authority. > > That the law may permit something doesn’t mean it’s right. I believe your cite, but I personally find this enromously inconsistent. I think a big part of the reason I don’t have a problem with not requiring parental consent for abortion, etc. is the inconsistency. I might feel differently if we lived in a society where the default was that someone other than the teenage parents was primarily responsible for their children. Although I can’t imagine how it would work with two sixteen year old parents - which grandparents would have the authority and responsibility , suppose none of them wanted it, would they be able to surrender the child against the parents’ wishes ,what happens when the parents reach 18? But in this society for the most part, being a parent emancipates a minor, at least as far as the minor’s child is concerned. BTW, its not the only way a minor can become emancipated before 18. Marriage and joining the military (if they still take 17 year olds) will generally have the same effect. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/115 "2003-05-26T02:53:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philly Style \* > \*\*True, if you happen to live in Uganda. Get real. Using that as an argument would only hold up where medical care is still primative. > > The US isn’t number one in this area, but child birth is not really a major risk. \*\* Even in the US, abortion has a lower mortality and morbidity rate than childbirth. Childbirth in developed countries may not be **highly** risky, but it’s not as safe as an abortion. And teenagers face greater risks in childbirth than women whose bodies have finished growing and developing. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/116 "2003-05-26T12:05:24Z")
By the way, not all states appear to recognize the birth of a child as a moment that defines the age of majority for the parent. Again, IANAL, but Idaho’s law (as an example–and I believe Maryland is another example) defines minors thusly: > [@](#): > > \*\*32-101. MINORS DEFINED. Minors are: > > 1. Males under eighteen (18) years of age. > 2. Females under eighteen (18) years of age. > 3. Provided, that any male or any female who has been married shall be competent to enter a contract, mortgage, deed of trust, bill of sale and conveyance, and sue or be sued thereon. \*\*I still agree with Doreen that this appears to be an area of great inconsistency as a matter of law in many (most?) states (and it’s absolutely possible I am misunderstanding the implications of Idaho’s definition of a minor). But my feelings regarding what parental rights _ought_ to encompass remain the same, the confused statutes notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/117 "2003-05-26T15:42:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by artemis \* > \*\*Even in the US, abortion has a lower mortality and morbidity rate than childbirth. \*\* Not true. Such claims are based on [specious statistics](http://www.abortiontv.com/AnswersToProChoice.htm#Abortion%20is%20a%20safe), which fail to accurately report complications arising from abortion. Moreover, even if we ignore these complications, the alleged increase in risk due to childbirth is not statistically significant, as Dr. Francis Beckwith showed in his book, [_Politically Correct Death_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0801010500/qid=1053963964/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-7866475-6321450?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). In fact, a well-known study shows [that the mortality rate is actually higher for post-abortive women](http://www.afterabortion.org/news/abortiondeaths.html). A more recent study [affirms that conclusion](http://www.afterabortion.org/news/deaths_smj.html). ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/118 "2003-05-26T19:36:48Z")
_ahem_ The aggregate mortality rate from complications of legal abortions in 13 countries, most of them developed, for which accurate data are available is 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions [cite](http://www.jhuccp.org/pr/l10/l10chap1_3.shtml) A CDC study found 12 pregnancy-related deaths occurred for every 100,000 live births. [cite](http://www.cdc.gov/od/oc/media/pressrel/fs030220.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/119 "2003-05-26T20:15:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*_ahem_ > > The aggregate mortality rate from complications of legal abortions in 13 countries, most of them developed, for which accurate data are available is 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions [cite](http://www.jhuccp.org/pr/l10/l10chap1_3.shtml) \*\* I’d say they understated the death rate per 100,000 significantly. By exactly 100,000, according to my calculations. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2003, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708/120 "2003-05-26T20:22:18Z")
Let’s not open this can of worms again. :smack: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parental-consent-for-medical-treatment-abortion/176708.md?page=7)