# Parents; banned packed lunches **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 15, 2014, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149 "2014-07-15T10:53:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/181 "2014-07-19T22:58:11Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Which was quite the fallacy of the excluded middle. The schools I attended had a closed campus, meaning we couldn’t go to McDonald’s to get a fresh lunch instead of eating at school. Could we bring a cold Quarter Pounder in our lunchbag? Sure. But we mostly didn’t, ‘cause gross. **even sven** ’s comment was a reasonable one in response to the open campus school noting that the kids were going off campus to purchase fast food. There’s a world of options between “let the kids leave school grounds to go to Taco Bell” and “force feeding.” Like, maybe start with closing the campus and not letting the kids go off school grounds. (I’m actually surprised when I see that allowed these days, whatwith the school shooter fears and secured campuses and the drugs and the loud music…if I was responsible for other peoples’ kids for 6 hours, no way in hell I’m letting them wander off at lunch time.) My high school and most (public) high schools allow students to come and leave. But again, even with that option, most students went to the free lunch, even if it was mystery meat (we just skipped the meat). Why? Well, if they brought money, they could always buy another snack at school or outside, or they just didn’t bring any money so the option being free food or starve, they picked starve. And also, hey it was free. At the very least the milk, the juice, the fruit, the salad, the rice, or the beans, something will be passable. Also, the school food would likely take less time than going out, so you could spend your break playing or studying or gossiping instead of in line with everyone else getting their lunch elsewhere plus the walk back. This reminds me of something, though. The only way students can go off campus to buy food is if they actually bring money to school. Most of my high school I didn’t bring money to school. My parents were not that generous with money. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/182 "2014-07-19T23:16:51Z")
Thank you, WhyNot. You gave me a well-thought-out answer. In high school–we had a closed campus–we could eat in the cafeteria, order lunch items at windows, buy lunch items from vending machines (including hot, canned stuff!), or bring sack lunches. When I attended there were no fast-food places nearby; there are several now. (I graduated in 1967.) ---
**Author:** ![Rhiannon8404](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rhiannon8404/32/17929_2.png) [@Rhiannon8404](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhiannon8404)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/183 "2014-07-19T23:26:05Z")
> [@Sattua](#): > > 1. My daughter isn’t in school yet but I understand that lunch periods are getting shorter and shorter. Are the children being given enough time to eat this healthy food in a sane, civilized manner? I understand that some school systems have “lunch hours” as short as 10-15 minutes. That wouldn’t fly. Re-reading the thread, I noticed this bit I missed before. This is the number one reason my son doesn’t eat school lunch. He was waiting in line so long that he barely had time to eat before lunch was over. He’s a junior now and it’s been like this since middle school. They get 35 minutes for lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/184 "2014-07-20T00:55:35Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > [Fallacy of the excluded middle](http://changingminds.org/disciplines/argument/fallacies/excluded_middle.htm) means arguing as if there are no options besides two extremes. Extreme A: let the kids decide entirely where they go and what to eat for lunch, including nearby fast food restaurants. Extreme B: “search their backpacks and frisk the kids for contraband lunches? Force them at the point of a gun to eat an apple? Suspend kids because they ate a contraband baloney sandwich?” Except **Extreme B is the premise of the thread.** _That_ is what people are responding to. You and **even sven** are acting so shocked that _anyone_ could _possibly_ imagine that packed lunches would be banned, when it’s _right in the title._ ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/185 "2014-07-20T01:27:34Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Except **Extreme B is the premise of the thread.** _That_ is what people are responding to. You and **even sven** are acting so shocked that _anyone_ could _possibly_ imagine that packed lunches would be banned, when it’s _right in the title._ Even there (and no I’m not, I’ve been talking all along about banned as banned, until this side issue of “kids would rather get fast food” was brought up by Leaffan, not **even sven** or me) there’s a middle. There’s banned as in, “Jeremy, you can’t bring your peanut butter and jelly sandwich to school, you know that. Now put it in on my desk, go get some Taco Salad, and you can have your sandwich back at the end of the day,” and there’s banned as in, “search their backpacks and frisk the kids for contraband lunches? Force them at the point of a gun to eat an apple? Suspend kids because they ate a contraband baloney sandwich?” Which version of banned do you think is \*truly \*more likely? Which enforcement is more like the enforcement of other things banned during the school day, like cell phones, gum and too-short skirts? ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/186 "2014-07-20T01:41:57Z")
This reminds me of a Bill Cosby routine, in which he told about his shop teacher who took his comic book away–before the class hour had begun. The teacher said, "You’ll get this back at the end of the semester. " Young Cosby asked, “Why, does it take you that long to read it?” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/187 "2014-07-20T01:59:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I don’t think it’s doing that any more than schools are saying that parents are incapable of teaching the ABCs. > > If we keep doing the same thing, we will keep getting the same results- which involves things like so many kids getting “adult onset” diabetes that we had to change the name. Childhood nutrition is a public health problem, and public health approaches are remarkably good at addressing public health problems. > > It wasn’t long ago that kids had the “right” to bring their cigarettes to school and smoke them in the smoking section. But we have taken a public health approach towards smoking, and bitch about nanny states all you want, but we live remarkably longer and healthier lives because of that. > > And again, I am sure there are waivers and nobody is actually going to be forced into anything. The idea is to make school lunches the default, which isn’t going to be an easy shift even if today’s school lunches are healthy and delicious-- in part because so many parents have traumatic memories of the bad old days, and in part because “free lunch” still has a huge social stigma. The whole point of the exercise is to ban things. Yes, sure, I guess they’d fall foul of discrimination laws if they didn’t accommodate, say, Jewish or Muslim kids, but it could hardly be called a “ban” if all that is required is for a parent to say “I am sending my kid to school with a packed lunch of my choosing”. And while accepting your point about the stigma associated with free lunches (although I must admit it was never on my radar as a schoolkid in the UK - I did not know which kids paid for their lunches and which ones didn’t) I should point out that I’ve already said that I have no problem at all with schools offering free and healthy lunches to all kids. My problem is with making acceptance of this “offer” compulsory. But what I don’t accept is that childhood nutrition is a public health problem. Cholera outbreaks are public health problems, ameliorated by effective water treatment. Polio is a public health problem, ameliorated by offering vaccinations free of charge. Childhood nutrition is an individual health problem, if it is even a problem at all. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/188 "2014-07-20T02:23:28Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > The whole point of the exercise is to ban things. Yes, sure, I guess they’d fall foul of discrimination laws if they didn’t accommodate, say, Jewish or Muslim kids, but it could hardly be called a “ban” if all that is required is for a parent to say “I am sending my kid to school with a packed lunch of my choosing”. > > And while accepting your point about the stigma associated with free lunches (although I must admit it was never on my radar as a schoolkid in the UK - I did not know which kids paid for their lunches and which ones didn’t) I should point out that I’ve already said that I have no problem at all with schools offering free and healthy lunches to all kids. My problem is with making acceptance of this “offer” compulsory. > > But what I don’t accept is that childhood nutrition is a public health problem. Cholera outbreaks are public health problems, ameliorated by effective water treatment. Polio is a public health problem, ameliorated by offering vaccinations free of charge. Childhood nutrition is an individual health problem, if it is even a problem at all. Incidentally, there are no Jewish or Muslim children, only children of Jewish or Muslim parents. You wouldn’t talk of a monetarist or a neo-Keynesian or post-structuralist child. Also, childhood nutrition is indeed a serious problem, for all the reasons **even sven** and others have mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/189 "2014-07-20T02:48:34Z")
> [@Lemmytheseal2](#): > > Incidentally, there are no Jewish or Muslim children, only children of Jewish or Muslim parents. You wouldn’t talk of a monetarist or a neo-Keynesian or post-structuralist child. > > Also, childhood nutrition is indeed a serious problem, for all the reasons **even sven** and others have mentioned. On the first point - is that the battle you want to fight here? It kinda seems similar to those who are complaining that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. It’s true, but irrelevant. On the second point, I suspect you and I have different opinions on the function and appropriate responsibilities/powers of the state. I really do see a difference between the state mandating clean water standards in order to prevent cholera and the state micromanaging my childrens’ diet. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/190 "2014-07-20T03:03:43Z")
I’d like to hear Lemmy say that first venomous paragraph to Jewish or Muslim parents–and watch what ensues. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/191 "2014-07-20T03:12:45Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > I’d like to hear Lemmy say that first venomous paragraph to Jewish or Muslim parents–and watch what ensues. Really? He’s right, after all: you can’t fairly assign a religion to a child who is not old enough to decide for themselves. I just used it as a shorthand. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/192 "2014-07-20T03:27:15Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > Really? He’s right, after all: you can’t fairly assign a religion to a child who is not old enough to decide for themselves. I just used it as a shorthand. Oh? Then he should have nothing to fear by telling them! ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/193 "2014-07-20T03:33:51Z")
> [@dougie\_monty](#): > > Oh? Then he should have nothing to fear by telling them! He should have nothing to fear from expressing a considered opinion, no. I mean, expressing said opinion might be unwise in some cases, because there are violent loons around, but in normal circumstances he should be fine. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/194 "2014-07-20T03:59:44Z")
Okay, well I thought we were discussing an actually viable program that could theoretically be implemented in an actual school (bag lunches are “banned”, but with occasional exceptions), not a highly improbable hypothetical with no real world relevance. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/195 "2014-07-20T04:21:08Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Okay, well I thought we were discussing an actually viable program that could theoretically be implemented in an actual school (bag lunches are “banned”, but with occasional exceptions), not a highly improbable hypothetical with no real world relevance. We _are_ discussing a real world program that has indeed been implemented in an actual school. That’s what the whole thread is about, distractions notwithstanding. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/196 "2014-07-20T04:33:25Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > We _are_ discussing a real world program that has indeed been implemented in an actual school. That’s what the whole thread is about, distractions notwithstanding. Does this real program have zero exceptions under any circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/197 "2014-07-20T05:26:50Z")
The article (which was published in the Daily Mail and which I am therefore taking with approximately a truckload of salt) does say that the headmaster in question has said there will be no exceptions. They are making accommodations for children with allergies and special food requirements. Also, in case anyone missed it, this is for preschool-aged children (4-7) at a school in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/198 "2014-07-20T10:45:53Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > I don’t see it as the parents being incapable, I see it as a help in raising the kids. The time and expense done in preparing the meals day in and day out could be transferred into either more family time, or better dinners, better breakfasts, etc. Or redirecting the money that the families may or may not have into something else. You aren’t helping someone if you force them after they decline your services. Helping someone is voluntary. Let’s say I were to offer to help you post here by proofreading everything you wrote. You decline my help. I force issue and proofread all your posts anyways. Would you not believe that I thought you were incapable of proofreading for yourself. It’s just inherent. When your force people to do something “for their own good” you are inherently saying you do not trust them to do it on their own. And, yes that is exactly why teachers teach all the things they do. We do not trust parents to be able to teach academic subjects to their kids. That’s why teachers and public schools exist. Anyways, I hate the idea for the same reason I hate Bloomberg’s soda ban. I do not think the government has a legitimate interest in forcing people to be healthy. It has interest in protecting people from dangerous substances, but not in the day to day food choices. Granted, that’s my perspective as an American. I admit the UK culture, especially with its national healthcare has more of an interest, but I’d still say limiting the menu to a single choice is way too strict, and will do the opposite of encouraging healthy eating habits. Every kid has different tastes, and you can’t accommodate them all. And I object to kids going hungry just because they have different tastes. If you insist on the goal of forcing kids to eat healthy food, I would suggest not banning home lunches, but regulation. It need not be all that complicated, either. Yes, I know this is a bit of a pain on both sides, but it’s better than kids going without. The other way would be to provide kids with choices that fit their nutritional goals, allowing them to find healthy food they actually like. Three choices would probably be enough, especially if you could mix and match. And all of this is predicated on it actually being healthy, with individual requirements for every student. I know from experience that athletes, for example, need more food. When all vending machines were closed and all extra items taken off the menu at my school, coaches started noticing their students having much less energy, as they were being fed with the same calorie requirements as sedentary kids. People are different. Honestly, I think letting kids bring lunches or additional food from home is a much more cost effective means of handling the variation, but I’m not an expert. I do know that schools are supposed to act _in loco parentis_, i.e. a substitute for the parent. But that doesn’t mean you get to overrule the parent. Sure, schools do have that right to some extent, but only because parents have ceded it to them. The parents in this school district clearly do not want to cede nutritional control, or this wouldn’t be a controversy. _In loco parentis_ does not fly. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/199 "2014-07-20T12:02:27Z")
I want to add in that some kids require different foods and or quantities. Take high school. You could have some little petite girl or skinny boy who eats little and the lunch “ration” is all they need. Now take a football player trying to keep weight AND who doesnt get home till 6-7 will consume loads of food. Some kids bring in 2 lunches. Now there are some allergy issues and my kids school has a “peanut free” lunch table only certain kids can sit at. No, I think the rule of “no lunches” is stupid and will force administrators to do backpack checks and have another rule to enforce. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149/200 "2014-07-20T12:04:54Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > The article (which was published in the Daily Mail and which I am therefore taking with approximately a truckload of salt) does say that the headmaster in question has said there will be no exceptions. They are making accommodations for children with allergies and special food requirements. Also, in case anyone missed it, this is for preschool-aged children (4-7) at a school in the UK. Oops. Yes I missed all that. These are kindergartners not high school kids. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-banned-packed-lunches/693149.md?page=11)