# Parents keep child's gender secret - seek to raise genderless child **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 24, 2011, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995 "2011-05-24T08:48:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/21 "2011-05-24T14:07:07Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Ha. As if that’s unusual or special. Baptism, anyone? Or any of the countless religious ceremonies that take place at or shortly after birth? Hell, circumcision! Most circumcisions of young baby boys performed in the US are not religious based, but cultural. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/22 "2011-05-24T14:09:18Z")
> [@Skara\_Brae](#): > > Confused and ignorant. They are also apparently fans of “unschooling” which means they will not teach their children about anything untill they express an interest in it. I can’t imagine that will lead the kids to become well rounded. That is not what unschooling means. Unschooling means there’s no set curriculum and learning is experienced through hands-on life experiences as much as rote drilling. There’s no grading because there’s no need for grades when you’re teaching your child every day. Yep, I unschooled my daughter and she’s doing just fine.She was allowed to choose many of the subjects she studied (but not all, and she understood the importance of learning subjects she had no interest in), and she was most attracted to languages. Specifically Russian and Japanese. She dropped Russian but she’s pretty fluent in Japanese now as an adult. She has a real affinity for languages. This is the field she’s studying in college now. She had an above average ACT score and she seems pretty well-adjusted socially. So it all worked out for the best with us at least. As for what these parents are doing, it’s their choice. The kids sure look healthy and happy to me. They may well be quirky but this doesn’t automatically mean they’ll be ostracized or teased by other kids. From my experience the children won’t be the ones with the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/23 "2011-05-24T14:23:49Z")
> [@YaraMateo](#): > > I wonder if the child is really just intersex and they want the child to be able to pick what gender they are as an adult. If they’re not intersexed (the child), this is just a hot mess. This reminds me of a few years back when a prek kid supposedly came out as gay and his parents bought him dresses to wear to school. The child in that story was transgendered, not gay. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/24 "2011-05-24T14:27:05Z")
I don’t see evidence that they’re raising a genderless child. They’re raising a child who gets to choose its own gender identity. Or neither, if it wants. Raising a kid _who gets to pick_ if it identifies as male or female is \*\*not \*\*the same as raising a kid who _is_ neither male nor female. Presumably if the kid identifies as male or female or both or neither between ages 3 and 8 or so, the parents would support that choice and then advertise that to the world. Let’s be real, genitals and gender identity are not the same thing. There are a not-insignificant number of adults who are transgendered (man in a woman’s body or vice versa) and/or genderqueer (don’t feel like either gender/feel like both genders at different times), who resent being brought up with pressure to conform to one gender that felt wrong to them throughout their whole young lives. I’d call this a fringe methodology of child-rearing, but not a bad one. Actually, I’m shocked that so many dopers think the parents are bad people. I think the fact that they’re advertising this is pretty silly and overly dramatic, but I don’t have a problem with the methodology itself. Do people really feel this strongly about gender that they feel the need to project gender onto strangers? It smacks of insecurity. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/25 "2011-05-24T14:28:33Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > As for what these parents are doing, it’s their choice. The kids sure look healthy and happy to me. They may well be quirky but this doesn’t automatically mean they’ll be ostracized or teased by other kids. From my experience the children won’t be the ones with the problem here. The article states that Jazz doesn’t want to go to school because of the reaction he got when he visited. Whether the parents think they’re making a statement or if they’re trying do what’s best for their children, raising a family of hothouse flowers that can’t survive without their protection isn’t going to cut it. ---
**Author:** ![Elret](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Elret](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elret)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/26 "2011-05-24T14:32:12Z")
Both of my kids had full blown opinions about wardrobe by 18 months and to a degree I let them pick what to wear. Why not? Of all the weirdness here, is that really seeming off to people? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/27 "2011-05-24T14:56:16Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > The article states that Jazz doesn’t want to go to school because of the reaction he got when he visited. Whether the parents think they’re making a statement or if they’re trying do what’s best for their children, raising a family of hothouse flowers that can’t survive without their protection isn’t going to cut it. And that’s precisely the problem. The only way to reject the societal concept of gender is to essentially avoid society. Yes, individuality has value, but so does conformity. That’s what society itself is about. I wouldn’t have a problem with allowing the child to grow up with whatever gender identity they want, but that’s now what these people are doing. “We’ve decided not to share Storm’s sex for now — a tribute to freedom and choice in place of limitation, a stand up to what the world could become in Storm’s lifetime (a more progressive place? …).” That’s not caring about your child. It’s making a political statement. This is backed up by them making a proclamation about it. Also, this is an answer to **rachel** ’s statement, and it doesn’t look good that Storm will be allowed to pick their gender. The older child clearly wants to identify as male, but the parents are not letting him learn what it would take to identify as such to society. They very much are not supporting him in his choice in allowing him to continually be thought of as a girl, and he’s experiencing at an early age exactly what they should be trying to prevent–people thinking he is one gender while he thinks he is another. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/28 "2011-05-24T15:00:17Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Raising a kid _who gets to pick_ if it identifies as male or female is \*\*not \*\*the same as raising a kid who _is_ neither male nor female. The kid _is_ either male or female. It’s a physical fact. I think that a man should be free to wear dresses, get married to another man, or whatever other stereotypically female interests he may hold, but do not support his statement of fact that he is in fact a woman. I have an intense dislike for attempts to sidestep the issue by telling a male child “that’s okay, you just identify as a girl” instead of “it’s okay, boys can like X too”. To borrow Derleth’s analogy from when he was talking about atheism, “It’s like the government desegregating the military by declaring that all members of the Armed Forces are Caucasian in the eyes of the law.” > [@](#): > > I’d call this a fringe methodology of child-rearing, but not a bad one. Actually, I’m shocked that so many dopers think the parents are bad people. I think the fact that they’re advertising this is pretty silly and overly dramatic, but I don’t have a problem with the methodology itself. > > Do people really feel this strongly about gender that they feel the need to project gender onto strangers? It smacks of insecurity. It’s not how strongly we feel about gender that matters, it’s how strongly we feel about parents that create vulnerable children. It’s the emotional equivalent to teaching your kid how to ride a bike, but not teaching them they need to wear a helmet. I wouldn’t have a problem with them letting Jazz choose to wear his hair long or wear dresses if they were also teaching him to have the strength to _survive_ as a boy with long hair that likes to wear dresses. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/29 "2011-05-24T15:04:29Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Let’s be real, genitals and gender identity are not the same thing. There are a not-insignificant number of adults who are transgendered (man in a woman’s body or vice versa) and/or genderqueer (don’t feel like either gender/feel like both genders at different times), who resent being brought up with pressure to conform to one gender that felt wrong to them throughout their whole young lives. Sure, and being accepting of variance in gender identity isn’t the same as pretending that genitals don’t exist. > [@rachelellogram](#): > > I’d call this a fringe methodology of child-rearing, but not a bad one. Actually, I’m shocked that so many dopers think the parents are bad people. I’d like to confirm whether, as I asked above, they plan to actually _withhold facts_ before I decide that they’re bad people. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/30 "2011-05-24T15:06:24Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I don’t see evidence that they’re raising a genderless child. They’re raising a child who gets to choose its own gender identity. Or neither, if it wants. Raising a kid _who gets to pick_ if it identifies as male or female is \*\*not \*\*the same as raising a kid who _is_ neither male nor female. > > Let’s be real, genitals and gender identity are not the same thing. I can’t imagine that telling a kid “You can be a girl if you want, even though you have a penis” is doing any favors in the long run. This is not the same as instilling the idea that you don’t always have to do and like “boy” things exclusively. And it’s not the same as accepting a child’s ultimate gender identity, which is not going to manifest itself in infancy, so to me this idea is just ridiculous. I don’t think these parents are bad people, just goofball granola-munchers who don’t seem to be in touch with reality. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/31 "2011-05-24T15:13:26Z")
Once the tyke is potty trained, which public restroom will (s)he use? ---
**Author:** ![Implicit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Implicit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Implicit)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/32 "2011-05-24T16:56:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Little Franklin Delano Roosevelt sits primly on a stool, his white skirt spread smoothly over his lap, his hands clasping a hat trimmed with a marabou feather. Shoulder-length hair and patent leather party shoes complete the ensemble. > > We find the look unsettling today, yet social convention of 1884, when FDR was photographed at age 2 1/2, dictated that boys wore dresses until age 6 or 7, also the time of their first haircut. Franklin’s outfit was considered gender-neutral. > > But nowadays people just have to know the sex of a baby or young child at first glance, says Jo B. Paoletti, a historian at the University of Maryland and author of Pink and Blue: Telling the Girls From the Boys in America, to be published later this year. Thus we see, for example, a pink headband encircling the bald head of an infant girl. from [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html?c=y&page=1](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/When-Did-Girls-Start-Wearing-Pink.html?c=y&page=1) I’m surprised at all the negative responses in this thread. Until recently no one forced children into gender specific clothing at birth. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/33 "2011-05-24T16:59:21Z")
Grumman, you bring up some interesting points. > [@Wheelz](#): > > I can’t imagine that telling a kid “You can be a girl if you want, even though you have a penis” is doing any favors in the long run. I’d imagine what you can’t imagine would fill rather a large tome. There are a not-insignificant number of transwomen _right now_ who are dressing, acting, and most importantly, \*feeling like \*women, despite possessing male genitalia. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/34 "2011-05-24T17:07:30Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Once the tyke is potty trained, which public restroom will (s)he use? It’ll be years before E goes into a seperate restroom from whatever parent/adult is accompanying em. Wasn’t there another thread on this situtation (raising a genderless child, not this specific family) a few years ago? 😕 I remember somebody linking a children’s book from the '70s where a couple was doing that (on advice from a panel of scientists); the child had a gender-neutral name (which was used instead of any pronouns), and wore coveralls. It was very creepy. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/35 "2011-05-24T17:08:17Z")
> [@](#): > > “What we noticed is that parents make so many choices for their children. It’s obnoxious,” says Stocker. Isn’t it, though? 😛 > [@Implicit](#): > > Until recently no one forced children into gender specific clothing at birth. This is a discussion of gender roles, which is a much broader category than clothing. And 100 years isn’t that recent. Either way, [here’s the FDR photo.](http://pdiehl.blogspot.com/2011/04/fdr-at-25-in-1884.html) ---
**Author:** ![Azeotrope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/0ea827/32.png) [@Azeotrope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azeotrope)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/36 "2011-05-24T17:12:02Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Grumman, you bring up some interesting points. > > I’d imagine what you can’t imagine would fill rather a large tome. There are a not-insignificant number of transwomen _right now_ who are dressing, acting, and most importantly, \*feeling like \*women, despite possessing male genitalia. Thing is, those individuals are older, have made the conscious choice to do it, and know they are facing an uphill struggle to live in the manner that makes them feel comfortable in a world that’s not accepting of it. Grade school age kids just aren’t world-aware enough to make those decisions on their own or to deal with the repercussions, and Storm and Jazz’s parents don’t seem to be raising them in a manner that will give them the tools to cope with the inevitable criticsim they’ll get if they don’t look and act “gender normal.” ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/37 "2011-05-24T17:16:29Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > and most importantly, \*feeling like \*women, despite possessing male genitalia. They say they feel like women, but how do they know? I lack the frame of reference to know what it feels like to be a man, so how do they know what it feels like to be a woman, especially when a lot of feeling like a woman vs feeling like a female child has to do with hormones and other biological processes that someone with XY chromosomes wouldn’t experience? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/38 "2011-05-24T17:39:02Z")
The problem with rejecting society’s values is that it puts you into a confrontation with society. And society has an individual outnumbered a billion to one so the odds are against the individual. If an individual wants to take on those odds and challenge society, more power to him (or her or it). I can respect someone who chooses to fight against a virtually impossible fight, even if I don’t agree with their cause. But you have to be a real scumbag to draft somebody else into that fight, especially your own child. A parent’s job is to teach his or her child. They should tell their child what the values of society are. And then they can let the child make his or her own informed decisions about refusing to embrace those values. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/39 "2011-05-24T17:45:42Z")
Not everyone is Xx or XY. XXY, XYY, and other variations thereon are, while not common, happens often enough that you probably went to school with someone who had an extra sex chromosome or even more. [Here’s XYY syndrome, for example](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome)- that’s 1 in 1000, but when you add up all the other possibilities, the frequency gets a lot higher than that. Then, of course, you have numerous other conditions causing people to actually be intersexed. Not that I’m saying this kid has any of these syndromes - I’m just addressing the concept that everyone’s XX or XY and it’s perfectly straightforward. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995/40 "2011-05-24T17:50:21Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Their two other kids started picking out their own clothes at 18 months? It’s been a while since I was 18 months old, is this normal? My granddaughter has shown an intense interest in clothing since she was about a year old. While she doesn’t select her own in the sense that she can go to the closet and pick something out, she definitely expresses a preference if you ask her which shirt or pajamas she wants to wear. She also loves purses. And makeup brushes. Oh, and cars. Loooves cars. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-keep-childs-gender-secret-seek-to-raise-genderless-child/582995.md?page=3)