# Parents of Jahi McMath (brain dead child) allowed to take daughter out of hospital **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833 "2014-01-03T22:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/181 "2014-01-10T13:51:15Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > The important part of the outcome is not the duration of gestation in brain dead condition; the important part is that a person in a brain dead condition from a similar point in pregnancy was delivered of a healthy baby. But do we know what the cause of that woman’s brain death was? It matters. Someone who’s brain dead as a result of blunt-force head trauma may have had uninterrupted oxygenation of the rest of their tissues (including, if the person is a pregnant woman, her fetus). We know that wasn’t the case for the woman in Texas, as her brain death resulted from circulatory collapse secondary to a pulmonary embolism. There’s really little reason to expect a healthy baby from this particular case, given that the fetus was also severely oxygen deprived for as long as an hour. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/182 "2014-01-10T18:14:27Z")
> [@Attorney Dolan](#): > > “One thing that’s really offended me, I mean really offended me, is that I am misleading this family, that I’m giving them false hope,” he said. "Well that means that this family is dumb, and I really resent that. That somehow they’re going to be hoodwinked by some lawyer that’s manipulating them. **These are smart people."** 😛 [Story](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-jahi-mcmath-attorney-defends-actions-20140110,0,1306040.story?track=rss#axzz2q1Ik8AIN). (Personally, I don’t know that most people think he is giving them false hope. They already had it.) ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/183 "2014-01-10T18:23:56Z")
Someone needs to tell Mr. Dolan that being smart and being in denial are two separate states that can coexist together quite happily in the same person. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/184 "2014-01-10T19:34:08Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Do people really not get that? How many times has UHC been described as “free” in these same boards? It’s not free, it’s prepaid, but for many people the connection between their taxes (or those of others) and the services from the government is as tenuous as a spider’s thread. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/185 "2014-01-10T21:13:26Z")
Now the girl is on a feeding tube: [http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national\_world&id=9387373](http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/national_world&id=9387373) ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/186 "2014-01-10T21:40:09Z")
A feeding tube placed in a body that hasn’t had any bowel sounds for three weeks… something tells me that’s not going to work out so well. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/187 "2014-01-10T22:32:21Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > A feeding tube placed in a body that hasn’t had any bowel sounds for three weeks… something tells me that’s not going to work out so well. OTOH how much worse is she going to get? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/188 "2014-01-10T22:46:51Z")
Well, I’d say once she starts weeping bodily fluids that’s a sign that cellular integrity might not be in such great shape. And for all we know, maybe she already is. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/189 "2014-01-10T22:54:58Z")
I think the question at this point is how much smellier is she going to get. Ugh. Icky. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/190 "2014-01-10T23:02:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > OTOH how much worse is she going to get? > > Regards, > Shodan Google “postmortem purging” and find out. But only if you have a strong stomach! ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/191 "2014-01-10T23:04:59Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I think the question at this point is how much smellier is she going to get. Ugh. Icky. I read somewhere that part of the deal struck with the parents was that they have to return the body to the coroner’s office after the heart stops so that an autopsy can be performed. That’s one autopsy I’d hate to be doing! Vicks Vaporub has its limits. ---
**Author:** ![troubledwater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f4b2a3/32.png) [@troubledwater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/troubledwater)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/192 "2014-01-11T00:40:36Z")
Are there any rules regarding what dates are placed on a gravestone? I am wondering if Jahi’s will read “\_\_\_\_\_ to December 2013” or “\_\_\_\_\_ to January 2014.” ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/193 "2014-01-11T03:03:29Z")
> [@troubledwater](#): > > Are there any rules regarding what dates are placed on a gravestone? I am wondering if Jahi’s will read “\_\_\_\_\_ to December 2013” or “\_\_\_\_\_ to January 2014.” The family can put whatever they want on the gravestone, but the death certificate will have the date in December on it. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/194 "2014-01-11T03:05:38Z")
Reading some of the last few posts on physical deterioration reminds me of the reason that most enlightened people have some equivalent of “living wills” and/or “Do Not Resuscitate” orders so that they be allowed to die with dignity even when still alive, rather than be subjected to extreme measures with poor outcomes and a terrible quality of life even if they succeed. That’s why this travesty being allowed to continue is just so, so wrong, and why the opposite situation playing out in Texas where the law actually **prevents** removal of the ventilator is, IMHO, downright criminal in its immorality. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/195 "2014-01-11T03:08:54Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Reading some of the last few posts on physical deterioration reminds me of the reason that most enlightened people have some equivalent of “living wills” and/or “Do Not Resuscitate” orders so that they be allowed to die with dignity even when still alive, rather than be subjected to extreme measures with poor outcomes and a terrible quality of life even if they succeed. That’s why this travesty being allowed to continue is just so, so wrong, and why the opposite situation playing out in Texas where the law actually **prevents** removal of the ventilator is, IMHO, downright criminal in its immorality. It’s not just there, and Living Wills, Advance Directives and Power of Attorney for Healthcare don’t apply to withdrawing “life support” when you’re pregnant in more than half the states in the US. I just found this out, and I’m quite literally scared now. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17003900&postcount=104](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17003900&postcount=104) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/196 "2014-01-11T03:44:07Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > It’s not just there, and Living Wills, Advance Directives and Power of Attorney for Healthcare don’t apply to withdrawing “life support” when you’re pregnant in more than half the states in the US. I just found this out, and I’m quite literally scared now. The cynic in me says that this should not be surprising. It is **certainly** not surprising that with a couple of exceptions, these are all red states with wingnut abortion laws put forward by Bible-thumping evangelicals. Gotta love this part: “None of these statutes makes an exception for patients who will be in prolonged severe pain or who will be physically harmed by continuing life-sustaining treatment.” If living in one of these states, I recommend not being a woman. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/197 "2014-01-11T05:13:42Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > Someone needs to tell Mr. Dolan that being smart and being in denial are two separate states that can coexist together quite happily in the same person. Oh, I think he knows damned well. The guy’s taking advantage of a grieving family and he’s one of the most disgusting persons involved in this whole tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![TimeWinder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/198 "2014-01-11T23:27:18Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > It’s not just there, and Living Wills, Advance Directives and Power of Attorney for Healthcare don’t apply to withdrawing “life support” when you’re pregnant in more than half the states in the US. I just found this out, and I’m quite literally scared now. It never ceases to amaze me that women still live in these states, ditto the poor living in states who aren’t expanding Medicare (for free) because their red state governor doesn’t like the president being black, or basically anyone living in Texas. I realize circumstances will prevent some from moving out, but if my local government were actively trying to kill or rape me, I’d seriously consider moving someplace else, no matter how bad my circumstances. I don’t understand why these states aren’t basically populated only by white, rich, republican men. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/199 "2014-01-11T23:35:46Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#): > > It never ceases to amaze me that women still live in these states, ditto the poor living in states who aren’t expanding Medicare (for free) because their red state governor doesn’t like the president being black, or basically anyone living in Texas. I realize circumstances will prevent some from moving out, but if my local government were actively trying to kill or rape me, I’d seriously consider moving someplace else, no matter how bad my circumstances. I don’t understand why these states aren’t basically populated only by white, rich, republican men. Easy to say (and think), but moving out of Illinois means leaving my getting-elderly mother alone (I’m an only child) and uprooting my children from their schools and social support, not to mention all my social support, job and everything I’ve known since birth. And I don’t even have real estate keeping me here, just an intractable web of people. But now, more than ever, I hope this comes to a lawsuit and the law is found to be Unconstitutional in some way; that would force other states to reexamine their laws. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/200 "2014-01-12T17:44:11Z")
I’m not suggesting the parents should be charged, but I wonder if the “desecration of a corpse” laws in most states could be used to prevent this type of thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833.md?page=11)