# Parents of Jahi McMath (brain dead child) allowed to take daughter out of hospital **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833 "2014-01-03T22:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2015, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/221 "2015-02-21T07:47:06Z")
If she has any glimmer of consciousness, then it’s just all the more gruesome for her. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/222 "2015-03-04T13:53:14Z")
And the lawsuit has finally been filed. > [@](#): > > The family of a Northern California girl who made national headlines when she was declared brain dead after a tonsillectomy to correct sleep apnea sued the surgeon and hospital on Tuesday, alleging medical malpractice. [http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/family-of-california-girl-left-brain-dead-after-tonsillectomy-sues-hospital/](http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/family-of-california-girl-left-brain-dead-after-tonsillectomy-sues-hospital/) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/223 "2015-03-04T18:51:20Z")
[Complaint](http://thaddeuspope.com/images/mcmath-complaint.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/224 "2016-02-22T00:14:04Z")
I guess it’s time for another update. Under the circumstances, zombie jokes may be in somewhat poorer taste than usual. I don’t have nearly enough medical knowledge to know what’s going on, but I’m beginning to wonder if the family was right after all. Jahi’s family has filed suit in federal court to try to revoke the death certificate. > [@](#): > > Sandra Chatman, Jahi’s grandmother, visited them in New Jersey weeks prior to the Wednesday announcement and joined Dolan at the law offices, where she said Jahi was progressing. > > “I ask her to give me a thumbs-up, and she does it,” Chatman said. “She’s just doing awesome. I couldn’t be more proud of Jahi.” > > Dr. Heidi Flori, director of UCSF Benioff’s pediatric intensive care unit, dismissed the motions as spinal and muscular reflexes. > > ## But Dr. Alieta Eck, Jahi’s current doctor, has made a declaration in the suit claiming that after months of caring for Jahi, she believes the teen is alive. > > Jahi has entered puberty, developing breasts and underarm hair and starting her period. Puberty can only happen when the hypothalamus, which is part of the brain, releases hormones. Jahi’s hypothalamus is still working, Eck said, which means she still has some brain function. [http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Jahi-McMath-s-family-takes-brain-death-lawsuit-6718985.php](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Jahi-McMath-s-family-takes-brain-death-lawsuit-6718985.php) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/225 "2016-02-22T00:19:19Z")
From the link: > [@](#): > > Jahi’s current physician claims the 15-year-old has shown brain activity several times in her presence in the past few months. I’d want to know what those instances entailed, if there is indeed any evidence beyond hormonal changes, and if a neurologist has confirmed brain activity. I don’t wish to be cruel, but I am willing to dismiss out of hand anything the family, particularly grandma, brings forward. And I’ve known too many oddball docs to accept Dr. Eck’s assertions without corroboration. . ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/226 "2016-02-22T00:52:56Z")
If her body is still functioning, at _all_, then I will have to admit she’s not been brain dead for two years. She just couldn’t have been. So either the doctors were wrong, or she’s lying in a stinking puddle of goo somewhere in New Jersey and Dr. Eck is part of a conspiracy. Since Dr. Eck has never had any sanctions by the medical board in New Jersey (I looked her up on NJ license’s look up), has an unremarkable private practice (the only thing weird about them is that they don’t take insurance) and is in fact something of a public figure, having run for both Senator and Representative in New Jersey… I think it would be a stretch to accuse her of conspiracy. So the hospital done fucked up. She wasn’t brain dead. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/227 "2016-02-22T01:27:25Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If her body is still functioning, at _all_, then I will have to admit she’s not been brain dead for two years. She just couldn’t have been. So either the doctors were wrong, or she’s lying in a stinking puddle of goo somewhere in New Jersey and Dr. Eck is part of a conspiracy. > > Since Dr. Eck has never had any sanctions by the medical board in New Jersey (I looked her up on NJ license’s look up), has an unremarkable private practice (the only thing weird about them is that they don’t take insurance) and is in fact something of a public figure, having run for both Senator and Representative in New Jersey… I think it would be a stretch to accuse her of conspiracy. > > So the hospital done fucked up. She wasn’t brain dead. It’s still not certain Dr. Eck isn’t in over her head. And running for office is hardly evidence of sanity or honesty. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/228 "2016-02-22T01:39:06Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It’s still not certain Dr. Eck isn’t in over her head. And running for office is hardly evidence of sanity or honesty. Yeah, I’m not certain of _anything_ in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/229 "2016-02-22T01:47:38Z")
I still don’t buy it. If you look at the pictures her parents have been showing, her hands are all shriveled up, like they have no bones. (ALWAYS her hands, with her nails done.) And they now have her wearing eye patches, when they haven’t before. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/230 "2016-02-22T02:13:18Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > [http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Jahi-McMath-s-family-takes-brain-death-lawsuit-6718985.php](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Jahi-McMath-s-family-takes-brain-death-lawsuit-6718985.php) The ad I see in the middle of that story is “There’s nothing like waking up on a Sealy Posturepedic”. 🙂 It’s a shame the hospital screwed up on the brain death diagnosis, validating these people. If she could, I doubt Jahi would thank them for keeping her alive in that state. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/231 "2016-02-22T02:20:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I still don’t buy it. > > If you look at the pictures her parents have been showing, her hands are all shriveled up, like they have no bones. (ALWAYS her hands, with her nails done.) And they now have her wearing eye patches, when they haven’t before. Ew. It’s possible the eye patches are adhesive bandages for keeping the eyelids closed so that her eyes don’t dry out. That’s sometimes done to keep people in a coma from losing their eyes (and making things a bit more comfortable for other people in the room). Or it’s possible her eyes have rotted out of her skill. At this point, I can’t even guess. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/232 "2016-02-22T02:32:08Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > It’s a shame the hospital screwed up on the brain death diagnosis, validating these people. Isn’t it _being right_ that validates them? ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/233 "2016-02-22T02:39:10Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Isn’t it _being right_ that validates them? She’s still, at best, massively brain damaged and in a vegative state. Letting her die two years ago would have been kinder. Instead they’re continuing to draw out this charade, and if there was any hope that they’d come to their senses and act in the child’s best interests, that ship has sailed now that they’re fighting to prove the eeeeevil people who declared her dead two years ago wrong. From my understanding of their legal circumstances, there’s big money involved too. If they’re right, compo, and if they’re wrong, bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/234 "2016-02-22T02:49:20Z")
> [@Eliahna](#): > > …they’re fighting to prove the eeeeevil people who declared her dead two years ago wrong. But those people _were_ wrong, apparently. And might possibly have been encouraged to make that wrong diagnosis, given that it may have been malpractice that did the girl in in the first place. That _would_ be evil. > [@Eliahna](#): > > She’s still, at best, massively brain damaged and in a vegative state. Letting her die two years ago would have been kinder. If she’s as bad as all that, and without hope of recovery, there’s not really any “kinder” to be had, for the girl herself, is there? No reason to think she _suffers?_ ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/235 "2016-02-22T02:50:00Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > If her body is still functioning, at _all_, then I will have to admit she’s not been brain dead for two years. She just couldn’t have been. So either the doctors were wrong, or she’s lying in a stinking puddle of goo somewhere in New Jersey and Dr. Eck is part of a conspiracy. > > Since Dr. Eck has never had any sanctions by the medical board in New Jersey (I looked her up on NJ license’s look up), has an unremarkable private practice (the only thing weird about them is that they don’t take insurance) and is in fact something of a public figure, having run for both Senator and Representative in New Jersey… I think it would be a stretch to accuse her of conspiracy. > > So the hospital done fucked up. She wasn’t brain dead. But if she’s been kept on life support all this time, wouldn’t that by definition keep her body functioning? Also, I’m not well-versed in all brain functions, but it seems probable that the hypothalamus could function mechanically while still meeting all accepted definitions of brain death. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/236 "2016-02-22T03:01:32Z")
> [@HelenGawn](#): > > But if she’s been kept on life support all this time, wouldn’t that by definition keep her body functioning? As discussed at great length earlier in this thread two years ago, no. Not for someone with, as the hospital claimed, a completely flat EEG. People who are kept functioning on life support for years are people with brain damage, but with brain stems that are still working. People in persistent vegetative states, not brain death. Things reported two years ago, like the mucosal lining of the intestines sloughing off, were consistent with brain death, and incompatible with long term functioning, even with life support. > [@](#): > > Also, I’m not well-versed in all brain functions, but it seems probable that the hypothalamus could function mechanically while still meeting all accepted definitions of brain death. The hypothalamus is part of the brain. The hospital’s claim, as I understand it, was that there was absolutely no brain function. The latest report, if true, does certainly cast doubt on the hospital’s evaluation. That’s a big if. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/237 "2016-02-22T03:15:18Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Ew. > > It’s possible the eye patches are adhesive bandages for keeping the eyelids closed so that her eyes don’t dry out. That’s sometimes done to keep people in a coma from losing their eyes (and making things a bit more comfortable for other people in the room). > Or it’s possible her eyes have rotted out of her skill. > > At this point, I can’t even guess. [That’s what her mother claimed](https://www.facebook.com/keepJahiMcmathonlifesupport/photos/a.167241473484813.1073741828.166781143530846/413713925504232/?type=3&theater/) – although I have my doubts, considering [the way her hands look](https://www.facebook.com/TeamJahiAFamilyInDenial/photos/a.1445130052372411.1073741828.1445022402383176/1505670429651706/?type=3&theater). Can any living human possibly get their hands in that type of position? They’re now saying “she’s moving”, but the angles in the video make it tough to tell if someone’s making it happen. Who knows? I’m not a medical expert. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/238 "2016-02-22T04:15:15Z")
Not to be crude about it, but pre-surgery photos of Jahi (see [here](http://s1106.photobucket.com/user/nighttimer/media/jahi-mcmath03_zpsda1ea55e.jpg.html) ) pretty clearly show breast development. She didn’t just enter puberty within the past year or so. If the family is willing to stretch the truth about this, what else are they stretching the truth about? Previously, the family has said that she is receiving a cocktail of medications, so could various sex hormones be part of that mix? The longest period of mechanical maintenance after diagnosis of brain death is 14 years. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/239 "2016-02-22T04:39:32Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > The longest period of mechanical maintenance after diagnosis of brain death is 14 years. Jesus. I assume this is the case you’re talking about: > [@](#): > > I will not repeat here the case history of the record survivor, ‘TK’, who > at the time of my meta-analysis had been brain-dead for 14 years and on a > ventilator at home. I presented a video of my complete neurological examination > of TK at the Task Force on Brain Death of the Pontifical Academy > for Life (1997-98), as well as at the Third International Symposium on > Coma and Death in Havana (Shewmon, 2000). Everyone who saw the video > agreed that the patient met all the clinical criteria for brain death short of > a formal apnea test, which could not be ethically performed because there > would have been no benefit to outweigh the risks. (He had never been > observed to breathe spontaneously for up to 1 minute off the ventilator during > suctioning or tracheostomy changes). Confirmation of total brain > destruction (including the entire brain stem) was obtained, however, by an > MRI scan, which showed no identifiable brain or brain-stem structure, > making the apnea test a moot point. TK finally expired after 20 years in the > brain-dead state. A brain-only autopsy was performed, with singularly > remarkable findings that confirmed still more definitively the totality of > brain and brain-stem destruction (Repertinger et al., 2006). > > I am glad that the autopsy and publication were done by physicians > with no relationship to me and with no previous special interest in brain > death. It is clear from their multiple choices of words what all four coauthors > consider TK’s life/death status to have been. He ‘died at age 24 years > of complications of H influenzae type b meningitis acquired at age 4’ (p. > 591). ‘During the rest of his life, he was ventilator dependent … He required > chronic care for most of his life … In his final 2 months of life … [H]e experienced > a cardiac arrest in January 2004. Following his death, a brain-only > autopsy was performed’ (p. 592). ‘Our pathologic findings at autopsy confirmed > that his brain had been destroyed by the events associated with the > episode of H influenzae type b meningitis, whereas his body remained alive > (brain death with living body) for an additional two decades, a duration of > survival following brain death that far exceeds that of any other reports’ (p. > 594). I have no doubt that anyone else who might have seen TK prior to his > cardiac arrest would have used similar terms to describe his body: a clearly > living human organism, deeply comatose, with vigorous spinal reflexes > (both neuromuscular and autonomic) – in no way a disintegrated collection > of organs and tissues, or a ‘corpse’ whose death was masked for 20 years by > a mechanical ventilator [http://www.casinapioiv.va/content/dam/accademia/pdf/sv110/sv110-shewmon.pdf](http://www.casinapioiv.va/content/dam/accademia/pdf/sv110/sv110-shewmon.pdf) That is so horrifying, I don’t even have words. I know, I know, he wasn’t there to suffer. But…_shudder_ What’s the mode for duration of period of mechanical maintenance after diagnosis of brain death? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2016, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/240 "2016-02-22T06:35:28Z")
Yes, “T.K.” was the case to which I referred. (Sorry, I was remembering 14 years; it was really over 20.) An [article](https://hods.org/pdf/Long%20Survival%20Following%20Baterial%20Meningits-Associated%20Brain%20Destruction1.pdf) about him, including details and photos of his brain autopsy, was published in the Journal of Child Neurology. He was four years old when meningitis destroyed his brain; over the following two decades he grew some (104 cm and 70 kg at autopsy) and developed a few secondary sexual characteristics, although obviously did not develop normally. His limbs would respond to tactile stimulus, and sometimes he made apparently random and spontaneous movements, particularly of his legs. His mother kept him in a small apartment in her basement for much of that twenty years. His brain was GONE: “Subsequent autopsy revealed a calcified intracranial spherical structure weighing 750 g and consisting of a calcified shell containing grumous material and cystic spaces with no recognizable neural elements grossly or microscopically.” There are a few other cases of long-term maintenance; [Alan Shewmon](http://jacek.norkowski.info/files/1538%5B1%5D.pdf) found “approximately 161 documented survivals of at least 1 week, approximately 67 at least 2 weeks, approximately 32 at least 4 weeks, approximately 15 at least 2 months, and 7 at least 6 months.” (Shewmon has argued against the very definition or concept of brain death, hence use of the word ‘survivals.’) All of the cases that lasted long-term were children, most of them very young. Usually, medical personnel don’t even try long-term maintenance, so I’m not sure anybody has any meaningful statistics on how long is typical, or even possible. (T.K. was finally declared dead only because his mother gave up and decided no further attempts at resuscitation would be taken the next time he went into cardiac arrest.) Most often, after the diagnosis is made and confirmed, the hospital gives the family a few days to come to terms and then the machines are turned off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833.md?page=13)