# Parents of Jahi McMath (brain dead child) allowed to take daughter out of hospital **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2014, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833 "2014-01-03T22:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![CatherineZeta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@CatherineZeta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatherineZeta)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/141 "2014-01-08T23:13:25Z")
Are you saying they are or aren’t suing? Sorry, what you said about the lawyer implies that they’re not, but the rest of what you said implies that they are. I didn’t read anything about a lawsuit, unless I missed that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/142 "2014-01-08T23:43:21Z")
> [@CatherineZeta](#): > > Are you saying they are or aren’t suing? Sorry, what you said about the lawyer implies that they’re not, but the rest of what you said implies that they are. I didn’t read anything about a lawsuit, unless I missed that. If and when they sue, the lawyer who fought to get her moved will not be taking the case. He also said that he is pro-choice - “pro-choice as hell” just to help keep this out of the abortion wars. I assumed they were going to sue. If in fact they were responsible for the problem, I’d guess they’d think twice about it. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/143 "2014-01-09T00:05:14Z")
> [@CatherineZeta](#): > > Good god, a cheeseburger?? I did hear that her grandmother suctioned her throat, but I wasn’t clear on why. If this stuff is true, I’m beginning to wonder if some of these family members might not have some criminal culpability in the child’s death. I suppose it would be terribly unfair to pile legal troubles on top of what they already have, and stupidity in itself isn’t a crime, but geez… ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/144 "2014-01-09T00:40:25Z")
I’m going to discount the cheeseburger rumor until it becomes founded, if only because it sounds like the kind of racist (black people are ignorant/stupid), fat-ist (fat girl couldn’t wait to have a cheeseburger), anti-intellectual (uppity nurse shoulda known better) nonsense I’d expect from internet trolls. It’s far more likely that the LPN grabbed the suction because the girl was choking on secretions, or blood, than that she let her eat a cheeseburger. Should she have suctioned a person who was not her patient? Hell no. But it’s a much more understandable action in a feared emergency than feeding a cheeseburger to a postop patient. Then again, this is presumably the same family member nurse who was talking to the press about how the girl wasn’t really dead, so what do I know? ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/145 "2014-01-09T01:14:52Z")
You’ve mentioned several of the reasons I didn’t initially mention that rumor, **WhyNot**. I also figure that if they DID do that, they did it out of ignorance rather than stupidity (doctors are always being over cautious, hoe much harm could one small bite of food really do?). Lots of patients and families aren’t fully compliant with medical instructions, and fortunately it doesn’t usually lead to tragedy. But I also think that if they DID do something like that, it sure would explain their extreme level of denial. All parents who lose a child suffer, but those who are directly responsible for the death (accidentally leaving their baby in a hot car, running their toddler over when they back up the car because they didn’t see the kid was playing in the driveway) exist in their own personal level of Hell. Denial might be preferable to opening the doorway to that level of pain. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/146 "2014-01-09T01:17:58Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Once more, with feeling: a coma is not the same thing as brain dead. Find me a story of a healthy baby born to a mother who’s been \*dead \*for 6 months, and then I’ll consider it possible. Until then, knowing a little bit about the physical and pharmaceutical abuse you have to heap upon a corpse to keep it from turning into a puddle of mush, and how most of these drugs cross the placental “barrier”, I’m going with the far likelier prediction that this will not end well. Until someone attempts it we really have little to no information to go on, do we? I haven’t been able to find anything substantial in my recent googling, but then, I admit I haven’t poured a lot of time and effort into this. Of course, there are massive, massive issues concerning a total lack of consent beforehand before turning someone into a science experiment. > [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Does the fetus still have a heartbeat? Yes. > [@artemis](#): > > Add to that the fact that if the mother’s circulation was poor enough long enough to cause the complete death of her brain, it’s highly likely the fetus’s brain has also suffered similarly (since it’s totally dependent on the maternal circulation for oxygen delivery to its tissues). Apparently, the placenta is able to buffer fluctuations in blood pressure and oxygen levels. I’m not at all conversant with how much of a “spare tank” this gives the fetus but as I noted up thread it’s the reason why in the past some kids survived the death of their mother long enough to be delivered by C-section. It’s really the only reason to hope the kid might be able to survive all this. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/147 "2014-01-09T01:24:47Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > But I also think that if they DID do something like that, it sure would explain their extreme level of denial. All parents who lose a child suffer, but those who are directly responsible for the death (accidentally leaving their baby in a hot car, running their toddler over when they back up the car because they didn’t see the kid was playing in the driveway) exist in their own personal level of Hell. Denial might be preferable to opening the doorway to that level of pain. The mother pressed the daughter to have the operation against her wishes. That seems like plenty of justification for the guilt without all this other stuff. Not that this proves it didn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/148 "2014-01-09T03:06:34Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The mother pressed the daughter to have the operation against her wishes. That seems like plenty of justification for the guilt without all this other stuff. > Not that this proves it didn’t happen. Not to mention that some people are just nutbags (as anyone who’s ever read public comments on a big website can attest). Maybe some day we’ll learn more about the events leading up to the hemorrhage. Maybe we won’t. Whatever happened, it doesn’t change the outcome: a brain-dead little girl with a grief-stricken family who aren’t willing to let her go. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/149 "2014-01-09T03:49:45Z")
Now the family’s lawyer is saying that [Jahi McMath is improving under the care of optimistic doctors](http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/08/health/jahi-mcmath-update/). ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/150 "2014-01-09T04:00:32Z")
And the insanity continues… (Shades of Monty Python’s Black Knight: “It’s only a flesh wound!”) ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/151 "2014-01-09T05:14:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > My understanding is that the procedure was requested to make it possible to move the body, and so would not be done before a place was found. That is almost certainly not the case. The hospital has not been granted permission by the family to speak freely about the issues, but were able to say: > [@](#): > > “We have done everything to assist the family of Jahi McMath in their quest to take the deceased body of their daughter to another medical facility,” hospital spokesman Sam Singer said. > > “To date, they have been unwilling or unable to provide a physician to perform the procedures necessary, transportation, **or a facility that would accept a dead person on a ventilator**. Our hearts and thoughts go out to them in this tragic situation, but the statements being made by their attorney and some family members are misleading and untrue.” Bolding mine. This is backed up by the **Supplemental Declaration of Dr. Heidi Flori** linked to up thread. It’s a pdf so I can’t cut and paste and am too lazy to type it out, but she says that as of her writing (January 3rd) the family had not yet named a facility willing to take her body. They very well may have had several places lined up, but were not offering any names so the hospital would be able to do their job and coordinate transfer of care. > [@Voyager](#): > > That would also eliminate the infection issue. If that were an issue, it would be an excellent thing for the hospital to point out - and I don’t think it could be considered as invading anyone’s privacy. Pointing out that some/many/ANY of their patients will become sick from infections they catch while in the hospital is a terrible thing for the hospital to bring up. “How incompetent are they? First they put this poor girl in a coma after a routine procedure and now they’re saying they won’t do another one because she’ll get everyone else sick. Is that what happened to her? Don’t they wash their hands in that place?” ---
**Author:** ![Crawlspace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Crawlspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crawlspace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/152 "2014-01-09T05:20:51Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > And the insanity continues… > > (Shades of Monty Python’s Black Knight: “It’s only a flesh wound!”) “Burns was rushed to a nearby hospital where he was pronounced dead. He was then transferred to a better hospital where doctors upgraded his condition to alive." ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/153 "2014-01-09T06:41:01Z")
So was she listed as “(Still) Dead on Arrival” ? ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/154 "2014-01-09T08:52:17Z")
> [@Jeff\_Lichtman](#): > > Now the family’s lawyer is saying that [Jahi McMath is improving under the care of optimistic doctors](http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/08/health/jahi-mcmath-update/). There’s really nothing there. They took a breathing tube out of her mouth, cut a hole in her throat to put another one in, then they cut a hole in her stomach. They probably gave her the same anesthesia that you or I would get for that. Then they bounced her from a bed to a gurney to a vehicle to a gurney to a bed. After she returned to her baseline they can claim she improved and stabilized, but it’s meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/155 "2014-01-09T14:31:13Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > There’s really nothing there. They took a breathing tube out of her mouth, cut a hole in her throat to put another one in, then they cut a hole in her stomach. They probably gave her the same anesthesia that you or I would get for that. Then they bounced her from a bed to a gurney to a vehicle to a gurney to a bed. After she returned to her baseline they can claim she improved and stabilized, but it’s meaningless. last I checked - dead was pretty stable - if all her functions are controlled by machine, I would expect them to be ‘stable’ as well. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/156 "2014-01-09T14:38:02Z")
> [@artemis](#): > > An interesting piece from the LA Times: [Lawyer thinks families, not doctors, should determine death](http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-jahi-lawyer-life-and-death-20140107,0,1598073.story?track=rss#axzz2pii5jteG). > > This idea needs to be squashed NOW. There are good reasons why a declaration of death can only be made by properly trained and licensed medical professionals! Why did Norman Bates’ mother just flash in front of my face. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/157 "2014-01-09T14:48:19Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I haven’t read anything more current than at 17 weeks, it did. But I don’t think we can extrapolate from that that the fetus is alive, or will be alive at birth. The heart muscle cells are self activated. Unless there’s damage to the heart, pump it with enough drugs, oxygen and nutrients, and a heart will beat, even if it’s in a dead person, or even if it’s not inside a body. Cardiac activity in the presence of “extraordinary measures” is a terrible way to determine “alive.” Jahi’s heart is still bearing. The dead mother’s heart is still beating. Both of them are dead, with beating hearts. When my sister lived with me she did a continuing ed class - at the time she was an ICU nurse - and I helped her study by playing a game of “dead or not dead” off of ECGs (?). So you know when you are watching medical television that when it flatlines its dead, right - well, you are right (to a point, its sometimes possible to restart a flatlined heart). But that little repetitive peak of activity doesn’t mean they are alive. The easy ones - and even I could tell these after knowing what to look at - where the dead people on pacemakers - that pacemaker will keep the heart beating for a long time and the way to tell its a pacemaker is that the signal is so very pretty and perfect - a heart beating naturally isn’t perfect. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/158 "2014-01-09T15:30:22Z")
> [@simster](#): > > last I checked - dead was pretty stable - if all her functions are controlled by machine, I would expect them to be ‘stable’ as well. Nope, that’s the problem really. The blood pressure starts to drop, so you give drugs to bring it back up. The kidneys start to fail, so you give drugs to make urine. Now the blood pressure is going too high, so you give drugs to fix that. Now the temperature is going low, so you wrap the body in warming blankets and hang a bag of warm iv fluids. Now secretions are blocking the airway, the vent is alarming! Bodies in a persistant vegetative state or coma are often quite stable. Dead bodies are always trying to go even deader. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/159 "2014-01-09T15:56:20Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Nope, that’s the problem really. The blood pressure starts to drop, so you give drugs to bring it back up. The kidneys start to fail, so you give drugs to make urine. Now the blood pressure is going too high, so you give drugs to fix that. Now the temperature is going low, so you wrap the body in warming blankets and hang a bag of warm iv fluids. Now secretions are blocking the airway, the vent is alarming! > > Bodies in a persistant vegetative state or coma are often quite stable. Dead bodies are always trying to go even deader. good point - thanks for the clarification - ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833/160 "2014-01-09T16:09:22Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Why did Norman Bates’ mother just flash in front of my face. As far as I’m concerned, **DSeid** won the thread with his earlier comment “It’s a hospital, not the Bates Motel.” Seems like the Bates Motel is what a subset of our citizenry would love to recreate (at taxpayer expense, of course). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-jahi-mcmath-brain-dead-child-allowed-to-take-daughter-out-of-hospital/677833.md?page=9)