# Parents of stupid children want to ban honor rolls, spelling bees **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2004, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164 "2004-01-26T16:01:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Truth\_Seeker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5fc32e/32.png) [@Truth\_Seeker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Truth_Seeker)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/41 "2004-01-27T00:12:49Z")
Heh. **Sofa King** , excellent cite. > [@](#): > > \*\*Paradoxically, improving the skills of participants, and thus increasing their metacognitive competence, helped them recognize the limitations of their abilities. \*\* This means that there is a direct correlation between stupidity and self-esteem. Ignorance really _is_ bliss! Unfortunately, a gnawing feeling of inadequacy is probably the greatest spur for high achievement there is. People who think they are “good enough” are unlikely to bust their butts to make themselves better. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/42 "2004-01-27T00:16:46Z")
Can I just say that amongst those “stupid kids” are kids who come from problem parents and/or have learning disabilities but in fact are very intelligent. Whilst I advocate having reward systems for doing well, those who achieve on a smaller scale need some kind of acknowledgement by the schools as well, also those who achieve in an artistic field need to be acknowledged. Were it an even playing field, the honours system would seem more equitable - however it is not for the above reasons. Schools need to acknowledge this. A student who is rewarded for coming to school everyday because they have had high absenteeism is not in the same league as a student who comes top in their year, however both should be rewarded. Positive reinforcement and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/43 "2004-01-27T00:16:58Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > \*Looking back on it, my school had a rather weird way of acknowledging academic achievement. At one ceremony my award for having top grades was…a baseball. > > Go figure. Conversely, my school would give out books as awards for athletic achievement. Not that we had a lot of that. We did have the best scholastic chess team in North America, though. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/44 "2004-01-27T00:23:57Z")
> [@MelCthefirst](#): > > Can I just say that amongst those “stupid kids” are kids who come from problem parents and/or have learning disabilities but in fact are very intelligent. Whilst I advocate having reward systems for doing well, those who achieve on a smaller scale need some kind of acknowledgement by the schools as well, also those who achieve in an artistic field need to be acknowledged. > Were it an even playing field, the honours system would seem more equitable - however it is not for the above reasons. Schools need to acknowledge this. A student who is rewarded for coming to school everyday because they have had high absenteeism is not in the same league as a student who comes top in their year, however both should be rewarded. Positive reinforcement and all that. Since when has life been an even playing field? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/45 "2004-01-27T00:25:37Z")
When I was in public school, it wasn’t the kids who weren’t on the Honor Roll who were picked on and bullied, for the most part. It was the ones who were on it. I had the distinct misfortune of being named a ‘peer tutor’ as a freshman and then given the assignment to tutor a rather popular football playing senior in freshman biology. He certainly didn’t get made fun of for that situation. Wanna guess who _did_? And whose ass his girlfriend threatened to kick for the whole ordeal? I remember many a loud chewing out in the hall about how a nerdy little freshman better never think her uberjock boyfriend would consider that nerd anything other than a pest. ---
**Author:** ![FaerieBeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e95f7d/32.png) [@FaerieBeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FaerieBeth)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/46 "2004-01-27T00:28:54Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Not only should we keep rewarding the kids who work hard and succeed, we should bring back the dunce cap for the lazy and the willfully stupid kids. A little humiliation is good for the soul. If you never have _expectations_ for your kids, if everything they do is recognized as equally significant, then NOTHING they do is significant but they wind up _thinking_ that everything they touch is gold. You get little narcissists with no self-awareness, no work ethic, no appreciation of others. That’s how we get those self-deluded idiots at American Idol auditions who are utterly stunned to be told they don’t have talent. **Dio** , m’dear, you are my common sense hero of the day. If I had a dollar for every “mommy’s gifted angel” I’ve had in my class…who “really deserves to be in the GT program”…who can’t even spell their own last name or manage to write more than one sentence in an entire morning :rolleyes: , I’d be about 8-10 dollars richer for every new class that comes along. “Oh of course, Mrs. YaddaYadda, even though little YaddaYadda is in the first grade, can’t spell his own surname, can’t recognize any of the Pre-primer sight words (I, in, is, my, me, you), and can’t tell the difference between a number and a letter, I’ll get you a copy of the recommendation form for Gifted and Talented right away. Yes, yes, I know little SuzyMiss, who is currently reading on a 3rd grade level and doing multiplication, was sent home with one last week. Of course it must have been an oversight that you didn’t get one, too.” I have this conversation at least once a year. Sometimes more. _sigh_ FB ---
**Author:** ![FilmGeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@FilmGeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FilmGeek)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/47 "2004-01-27T00:37:53Z")
When I got to high school, they decided that advanced and remedial classes were out of the question and that all kids would be lumped together. This happens all the time, I’m told. However, their intention was to teach to the lowest student and have the higher students _ **TUTOR THE STUDENTS THAT COULDN’T CATCH UP** _. I’m sorry, I don’t get to learn anything new because you’re teaching ninth graders what the rest of us got in elementary school? I don’t have a problem with kids who can’t learn as fast as I do. But don’t make me teach them. Teach me, fuckers. Luckily, when the good kids’ attendance dropped dramatically, they reinstated advanced, AP, and remedial classes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/48 "2004-01-27T00:41:42Z")
I’m surprised it’s taken this long to get to this point. In a world where coaches (who do nothing else) make more than teachers and where teachers have been threatened because they “failed” the stupid jock, this idiotic plan is just the icing on the cake. This whole “self-esteem” crap smacks of 80’s New Age bullshit. If you start early enough and tell your kids to do the best they can, but that it’s okay to fail, there would be no need for such insane measures. Teachers inflate grades because they’re afraid that they’ll lose their jobs or get sued. Granted, not every kid is gonna be able to win a Nobel prize for chemistry, so you teach 'em the skills they’ll need to function in the real world. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/49 "2004-01-27T00:43:55Z")
The correctness of the OP is pretty much self-evident. Nothing much to add here other than that I’m stunned by how many posters have had the courage to confess their own academic achievments. Maybe we should get some SDMB jocks together and Pit them! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/50 "2004-01-27T00:45:40Z")
I never perceived there to be much of a correlation between popularity and brains (over most of the curve… I guess the real dumbasses dropped out, and you can’t be popular if you’re not there.) Some of the popular kids were just so-so, and some were straight-A students. The school’s top math whiz was a very popular kid, always part of the in crowd; the most popular girl was a straight A student, played senior basketball (albiet as a backup most of the time) and was our finest actor. On the other hand, some of the brainiacs weren’t quite as popular, though nobody was really heavily ostracized. So you never know. What I certainly did NOT see was a tendency to make the stupid kids feel bad. What a load of bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/51 "2004-01-27T01:01:24Z")
Dio, you are the best. (By the way, I still chant, “ **WALMART IS THE TALIBAN!!** ” on a regular basis. ;)) Parents who try to protect their little darlings from disappointment and the reality of competition and unfavorable comparison to peers are _cruel._ There’s nothing quite as miserable as seeing seeing someone completely humilate themselves because they’ve been deluded into thinking that everything they produce is brilliant. The real world will spit them up and chew them out. On a somewhat related note, on a recent thread about art, someone linked to a site about how art schools aren’t teaching students real skills. Teachers will never tell a student that they, like, suck, but instead just practice a lot of double-speak. (This is what I’ve seen, anyway.) As a result, many students graduate from an art program with very little in the way of actual ability. Some, it seems, are aware of this deficiency and work to correct it with further education, while others seem quite oblivious and are apparently convinced that they are “talented” and have what it takes to be a great artist. It’s sad and moveover, **cruel** to not tell someone that they don’t (yet) have what it takes and they need to work on their skills and education. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/52 "2004-01-27T01:05:13Z")
Ugh. And I previewed. It should be, “Chew them up and spit them out.” You get the idea, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/53 "2004-01-27T01:07:51Z")
> [@yosemitebabe](#): > > Ugh. And I previewed. It should be, “Chew them up and spit them out.” > > You get the idea, anyway. Actually, the original way was funnier. ---
**Author:** ![Q.N.Jones](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3da27b/32.png) [@Q.N.Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.N.Jones)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/54 "2004-01-27T01:22:41Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > From the other side…I went to school in the late 80s, early 90s. > Academically, it was one of the best schools in the state…We didn’t have an honor roll, or at least not really. The only academic distinction was “people with over a 3.5 average” which was about a third of the students if not more. …If you really wanted to, you could find out your class rank, you could. But they made you jump through hoops, ask if you really wanted that information, and highly discouraged you from finding out. Very few people ever did. > > And students did work hard, and they were somewhat competitive - but it wasn’t insane. When I got college, I heard stories from people who had done incredibly shitty things to other students in the name of honor roll… Well, I went to a high school that was (as it turned out) full of future Harvard and MIT alums. And we had an honor roll. And everything was hunky-dory. The truth is that a lot of the crummy (or great) attitude surrounding the recognition of accomplishment is derived from the authority figures. Are the parents smug, win-at-all-costs types? Are the teachers? The coaches? The administration? Is winning the most important thing to them, or is it competing well and honestly? Is teamwork important, or is it only important to be the star? I went to a high school where it was the latter. Unfortunately, there are schools out there where the students are taught that winning is paramount. It depends a lot on the “culture” at a given school. I think the parents who want to ban the honor roll are just avoiding the real problem (if there is one). It’s a lot harder to try to get people to change their attitudes than it is to change one policy. ---
**Author:** ![dangermom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@dangermom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dangermom)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/55 "2004-01-27T01:49:05Z")
[The Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45116-2004Jan24_2.html) has a more complete article, including my favorite line: > [@](#): > > Others think it might be a good idea to get rid of the honor roll altogether, as Principal Steven Baum did at Julia Green Elementary in Nashville. > > “The rationale was, if there are some children that always make it and others that always don’t make it, there is a very subtle message that was sent,” he said. Why, yes! A message is sent, several of them in fact, and not very subtle ones at that. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/56 "2004-01-27T03:46:34Z")
I vote we put my 9th grade algebra teacher in charge of turning this thing around. Mr. Fulton had a student in his-my class named Fred, and I was so taken with my teacher’s utter bemused contempt for Fred’s work ethic, I wrote down some of the things he said to the kid: “Okay, everyone can start doing your homework. Fred, I’ll find you some Lincoln Logs to play with.” “I’m going to send you to sit in the hall again, Fred, same place as yesterday. Just look for the place with your hand prints on the wall.” (As the janitor was wet-vacuuming a puddle in our classroom from a leaky ceiling) “Pay attention, Fred, this is what you’re going to be doing for the rest of your life.” Regarding DtC’s OP: whose self-esteem are they trying to improve, here? The lackwit kids who have no looks or athletic talent or artistic ability or personality _and no desire_ to apply themselves? These are the kids at whom we’re aiming our teaching? We’re to fail to recognize legitimate ability in case someone doesn’t have any? Sheesh. Someone’s not thinking of anything except Little Junior Precious who didn’t make the cut but he’s _suuuch_ a little dear angel, he’s _soooo-ooo_ smart, he was talking six months before anyone his age, you know, he’s _soo-oooo_ good, he just needs some extra-special lovey attention, don’t you, cuddlebug, and he gets mad when he sees all the other kids do better. Ugh. Vomit on my head and release the hounds, why don’t you. What an awful way to be a parent. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/57 "2004-01-27T04:14:22Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Mr. Fulton had a student in his-my class named Fred, and I was so taken with my teacher’s utter bemused contempt for Fred’s work ethic, I wrote down some of the things he said to the kid: > > “Okay, everyone can start doing your homework. Fred, I’ll find you some Lincoln Logs to play with.” > “I’m going to send you to sit in the hall again, Fred, same place as yesterday. Just look for the place with your hand prints on the wall.” > (As the janitor was wet-vacuuming a puddle in our classroom from a leaky ceiling) “Pay attention, Fred, this is what you’re going to be doing for the rest of your life.” Yes, that’s a wonderful way to deal with Fred. Ongoing, relentless humiliation in front of his peers. :rolleyes: The issue is public recognition of achievement, _not_ the public jubilation in failure. **DtC’s** OP is right on, you can’t simply wish self esteem on someone, but then again, you can’t simply bury people in shit an expect them to blossom. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/58 "2004-01-27T05:15:49Z")
The flowers are never going to blossom unless they get some shit dumped on them now and then. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/59 "2004-01-27T06:12:18Z")
But too much shit, and they suffocate. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2004, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164/60 "2004-01-27T06:52:26Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I was another kid with excellent grades picked on by the jocks. I suspect it’s still much that way, and the “my kid is ridiculed for underachieving” thing is pure bullshit. Likely some kids are saying this to their parents to get sympathy so they get less flak for not getting better grades, It wasn’t in my school. Sure, the “Nerds” got picked on too, but so did the dumb kids. The kid know as “Tim [insert surname] the four year freshman” would probably disagree that only the bright kids were picked on. Well, if he ever learned how to turn on a computer… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-of-stupid-children-want-to-ban-honor-rolls-spelling-bees/226164.md?page=4)