# Parents prayed over daughter instead of bringing her to a doctor. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 27, 2008, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864 "2008-03-27T01:10:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/121 "2008-03-28T14:18:53Z")
Updates, for those who care. The [audio of the 911 calls](http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=733033) is available on the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel’s website. The link to listen to the calls is on the right sidebar, under the picture of Madeline Neumann. The article basically summarizes the content of the ministries’ websites. This article on [NBC Channel 13](http://www.weau.com/news/headlines/17060156.html), which does not say what city it broadcasts from, has the important parts from the 911 calls, for anyone who can’t listen. > [@](#): > > Aunt: My sister in law, she’s very religious. She believes in faith instead of doctors. She called my mother-in-law today, and we’re all in California. And she explained to us that she believes her daughter’s in a coma now, and she relied on faith to… > > 911 Operator: So the person that’s in a coma is not in a hospital, she’s at home? > > Aunt: She’s at home, and she’s 11. So we don’t know, she told us she believes she’s in a coma This [article on the Wausau CBS station’s site](http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/17068186.html) says that the investigation into her death will be complete by Friday/today. It also says this: > [@](#): > > Former Supreme Court Justice Janine Geske says a possible criminal charge in the case could be second-degree reckless homicide, which requires proof of “recklessly causing the death of another human being.” > > But she also says Wisconsin law says a parent cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if in good faith they selected prayer as a basis of treatment for a disease. I’ve no idea how this will proceed from here. The parents do seem thoroughly sincere in their beliefs, but if they even show a shred of doubt that seeking medical health might have been a better choice, then I can’t see it going well for them. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/122 "2008-03-28T14:21:54Z")
[QUOTE=Miss Purl McKnittington] Updates, for those who care. [/QUOTE] Thank you. I do care, and I’m getting the pitchfork ready. This doesn’t look good at all. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/123 "2008-03-28T14:25:09Z")
I found a better article for the phone calls from the aunt in California on [The Wausa Daily Herald’s website](http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080326/WDH0101/80326147/1981). It also includes a timeline of the events. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/124 "2008-03-28T14:31:05Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] Thank you. I do care, and I’m getting the pitchfork ready. This doesn’t look good at all. [/QUOTE] I find it pretty shocking that Kara had been in a coma for a day or more, and her mother acknowledged it, according to the aunt. Who doesn’t recognize a coma as something life threatening? I mean, _goddamn._ Apparently, [Police Chief Dan Vergin appeared on Nancy Grace (I know, I know) last night.](http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/WDH0101/80327065/1981&theme=WDHNEUMANN) The link is a transcript of that section of the program. The other children have been removed from the Neumann household and are being questioned by CPS. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/125 "2008-03-28T15:57:23Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma] Faith in God did not cause her death… two moron parents caused her death. [/QUOTE] Late to the party here, but I’d say religion, as opposed to faith, killed this child, and that religion is morally culpable while the parents are legally culpable. Religion, like any other business, has a way of seperating you from your desire or destination so that they may have their ‘cut’. You can have faith in a higher power without the dogma, the large expensive buildings and the paid representatives. You just can’t have a successful _business_ without those things. Churches can foster a sense of tradition and of community, but as in this case, they can also provide deadly advice, for which they should be held accountable. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/126 "2008-03-28T16:06:00Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] That and he never has anything new to say, so it’s not really necessary for him to comment. [/QUOTE] Neither do the people making excuses for religion. Funny that you aren’t complaining about them. And I don’t “have anything new to say” because the religious have been doing the same stupid and evil things over and over for millennia. That doesn’t get me anything new to the subject, outside of religious stupidity involving science and technology. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/127 "2008-03-28T16:08:22Z")
[QUOTE=Miss Purl McKnittington] I find it pretty shocking that Kara had been in a coma for a day or more, and her mother acknowledged it, according to the aunt. Who doesn’t recognize a coma as something life threatening? I mean, _goddamn._ [/QUOTE] Exactly. This is much more damning (no pun intended) evidence than anything presented in the first article. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@Miss\_Purl\_McKnittington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Purl_McKnittington)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/128 "2008-03-28T16:20:03Z")
This info from [this article](http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080328/WDH0101/80328044/1981) is pretty damning as well: > [@](#): > > The girl’s grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that Madeline Kara was unable to walk or talk on Saturday and she advised Leilani Neumann to take her to a hospital, according to the search warrant. Leilani told Gordon that the girl, who went by her middle name, Kara, would be fine and God would heal her, the warrant said. They also seized insurance paperwork and Blue Cross HMO cards for the family, which sounds suspicious to me, if medical intervention wasn’t an option they exercised. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/129 "2008-03-28T16:35:54Z")
I think we’re all missing the point here. We should take a step back and reflect on the fact that Jesus wanted the little girl to die. He could have stopped it, but god preferred that she expire painfully. Should we really be questioning \*his \*will? /religious\_bullshit That families’ cowardice and stupidity killed their daughter. They believe in ludicrous bullshit for no reason other than it makes them feel better. They mortgaged their reason for a fucking fake sense of spiritual calm. I hope they rot in prison and I hope their remaining children grow up atheists and shake off the fucking insipid curse of ignorance their parents cast on them. /spleen\_vent ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/130 "2008-03-28T20:00:56Z")
[QUOTE=Miss Purl McKnittington] This [article on the Wausau CBS station’s site](http://www.wsaw.com/home/headlines/17068186.html) says that the investigation into her death will be complete by Friday/today. It also says this: > [@](#): > > But she also says Wisconsin law says a parent cannot be accused of abuse or neglect of a child if in good faith they selected prayer as a basis of treatment for a disease. [/QUOTE] From [Here](http://www.topix.com/forum/source/chicago-tribune/TL1O4K43C5J513E0B/p4) > [@](#): > > In many states what they’ve done is not a crime. Wisconsin law, for example states: > State statute 948.03(6) provides an exemption from the law against failing to act to protect children from bodily harm for what is referred to as “Treatment through prayer.” The statute says: “A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing … in lieu of medical or surgical treatment.” > See:[http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php](http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php)… I checked on this hoping to find the judge you quoted was wrong or mistaken, but it appear not. So, in Wisconsin, you aren’t liable if your child suffers because you apply prayer which has never, ever, been shown to be effective? I assume that the vast majority of Wisconsin legislators would never pray instead of taking their kids to the doctor. So why did they pass such a dumbass law? Could it be because the political danger of saying anything bad about religion kept most of them from disputing the assertion that Jesus would take care of it? Would a representative standing up and saying that praying won’t help be considered an unbeliever, someone not believing in the power of prayer as mentioned in the Bible? In the Grace transcript James Robison says that an ambulance would be the answer to the prayers. But of course you can get an ambulance without praying also. I bet if someone hadn’t died thanks to prayer he’d be singing a different tune. If these monsters get off thanks to this law, I hope there is an uproar to repeal it. We’ll see what the churches say then. Thanks for posting all the links, btw. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/131 "2008-03-28T20:11:05Z")
**Voyager** , that’s the part that’s really sticking in my craw, too. Prayer is not and should not ever be a substitute for medical care for your children (I don’t care much what adults do to themselves). End of story. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/132 "2008-03-28T20:18:14Z")
[QUOTE=Lobohan] I think we’re all missing the point here. We should take a step back and reflect on the fact that Jesus wanted the little girl to die. He could have stopped it, but god preferred that she expire painfully. [/QUOTE] Okay, so, either Heaven desperately needed to bring up the girl to complete some critically important task, or the girl was, or was going to become, a horrible person and therefore needed to be removed from the world of the living before the damage could be done. Or, God’s just a sadistic asshole. Pick one. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/133 "2008-03-28T21:04:37Z")
[QUOTE=Cervaise] Okay, so, either Heaven desperately needed to bring up the girl to complete some critically important task, or the girl was, or was going to become, a horrible person and therefore needed to be removed from the world of the living before the damage could be done. Or, God’s just a sadistic asshole. Pick one. [/QUOTE] Oh, c’mon, there are many other reasons why God might have killed the girl. 1. God had a bad day and threw a hissy fit. There might be evidence of this if we lookat world-wide mortality that day. 2. Her parents did, or were about to do, such a horrible thing that the only suitable punishment was to kill one of their children. 3. Others, unknown to us but close to the girl, were being punished for bad shit. 4. She was to serve as an example to all humanity of the lesson: call the fucking DOCTOR when your child is in a coma! 5. Bringing the kid to heaven was actually a reward for something really good, like selling lots of Girl Scout Cookies or something equally saintly. And these are just off the top of my head! ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/134 "2008-03-28T21:10:57Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] None of which is saying that “every single religious person is absolutely the same”. [/QUOTE] I’m not entirely sure how you are not getting the idea that “faith and religion are mental illnesses” paints all relgious people with a pretty broad brush. I know you’re not stupid, so I think you’re being obstinately obtuse. ---
**Author:** ![hekk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@hekk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hekk)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/135 "2008-03-28T21:38:48Z")
Well, it looks like the law is unambiguously clear, they legally did nothing wrong. I wonder how many states have a similar law? I also wonder how old it is, if it was one of those throwbacks from 1850 like not hitching your horse next to a house of ill repute on a Sunday without a livery permit. Or maybe one of those 1950’s laws passed during the red scare to assert our non-godlessness, like putting “Under god” in the pledge. ---
**Author:** ![hekk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@hekk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hekk)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/136 "2008-03-28T21:42:44Z")
Also, the statute falls under “Physical abuse of a child” and “Failure to prevent bodily harm”. Could they then be charged with something else, like manslaughter or reckless endangerment, that doesn’t have the faith healing exemption? ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/137 "2008-03-28T21:45:15Z")
[QUOTE=Boyo Jim] 5. Bringing the kid to heaven was actually a reward for something really good, like selling lots of Girl Scout Cookies or something equally saintly. [/QUOTE] Maybe she gives great head. \ ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/138 "2008-03-29T00:32:20Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That is an insane statement. Reality is reality. There is no “my” reality and “your” reality. [/quote] Uh, dude…unless you are married to _my_ wife, live in _my_ house, raise _my_ kids, run _my_ business, pay _my_ bills, eat _my_ food, drive _my_ car, write _my_ letters, talk to _my_ friends, go to _my_ church, et cetera ad infintum, and then make _my_ decisions based on all that, then you and I are living in different realities in the broad sense…here, [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality#Phenomenological_reality) or [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality#Reality.2C_Worldviews.2C_and_Theories_of_Reality) may help you grasp the broad concept of reality. Of course you’ll want to argue about reality in the most narrow sense (fact: The Earth revolves around the Sun in which we do exist in the same reality) which is extremely disingenuous at best. But the reason why you, me, and everyone else on this planet doesn’t hold the SAME EXACT PERSONALITY, VALUES, OPINIONS, etc. is derived from their own personal perceptions forged by environment, society, etc. _Egocentrism_…catch the fever! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/139 "2008-03-29T00:37:16Z")
[QUOTE=Yeticus Rex] But the reason why you, me, and everyone else on this planet doesn’t hold the SAME EXACT PERSONALITY, VALUES, OPINIONS, etc. is derived from their own personal perceptions forged by environment, society, etc.! [/QUOTE] Perceptions = Reality? No wonder the world is so fuk dup. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2008, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864/140 "2008-03-29T01:11:19Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Perceptions = Reality? No wonder the world is so fuk dup. [/QUOTE] No, experiences define personal reality. Which is different for each and every person. The entirety of Sociology is based on this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-prayed-over-daughter-instead-of-bringing-her-to-a-doctor/442864.md?page=8)