# Parents who won't discipline their children because they're afraid of CPS **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 5, 2014, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954 "2014-01-05T17:24:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/21 "2014-01-06T14:52:31Z")
[Parents arrested](http://www.leaderherald.com/page/content.detail/id/522774/Charges-against-parents-dismissed.html) for failing to file homeschooling paperwork – even tough they had filed before the arrest. > [@](#): > > “Parents have the right to educate their own children as long as they follow the statutes. We’re all in agreement?” Family Court Judge Philip V. Cortese said Wednesday before he dismissed the criminal charges. > > The Cressys faced both the criminal charges and educational neglect charges in Family Court. Cortese heard the educational neglect charges on Feb. 10 and issued a six-month adjournment in contemplation of dismissal. > > Glen Town Justice Thomas J. Murray Sr. decided earlier in the month to send the criminal charges to Family Court where they were dismissed Wednesday. > > If convicted on the misdemeanor counts, the couple could have faced any number of consequences, the harshest being one year in jail and a fine of $1,000. > > William Lorman, the couple’s Amsterdam-based attorney, asked Cortese to dismiss the charges based on the fact the Cressys were “100 percent compliant” and in good standing with the school district. > > Prior to the Cressys’ arrest, they had already met with district officials and begun filing necessary paperwork. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/22 "2014-01-06T14:56:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There is a school of thought which maintains that some CPS workers, especially in certain areas, tend to come from lower class backgrounds in which child abuse is fairly common and they resent the fact that middle class parents do not abuse as frequently, and as a consequence are more apt to find abuse when dealing with middle class parents. I can’t vouch for this, but it’s out there. > > What has a higher likelihood of being true, is the notion that CPS hassles middle (and upper) class borderline abusers more because they can. When dealing with lower class people, their options are fewer, so they sort of give up, while with middle and upper class parents you can put them through the ropes and they’ll take it. I’m sorry - I just realized that I forgot to include what the point of all this was. People sometimes assume that because CPS sometimes doesn’t do enough in very blatant and extreme cases, that it follows from this that they would certainly not over-react in relatively minor situations. (This sentiment has been expressed in this thread.) My point was that this does not necessarily follow. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/23 "2014-01-06T15:01:13Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > … > The substantiated report is not a criminal conviction,but there may be a related conviction, It doesn’t show up on a criminal history, but some jobs and becoming a foster parent require a check of the state registry and it will show up there, If i recall correctly Reports are expunged when the youngest child named turns 18 Does having such a report automatically bar you from becoming a foster parent, or is it evaluated on a case by case basis to see how serious it was and what you learned from it? ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/24 "2014-01-06T15:43:04Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Does having such a report automatically bar you from becoming a foster parent, or is it evaluated on a case by case basis to see how serious it was and what you learned from it? I don’t know, I never worked in the foster care division ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/25 "2014-01-06T15:59:19Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There is a school of thought which maintains that some CPS workers, especially in certain areas, tend to come from lower class backgrounds in which child abuse is fairly common and they resent the fact that middle class parents do not abuse as frequently, and as a consequence are more apt to find abuse when dealing with middle class parents. I can’t vouch for this, but it’s out there. > > What has a higher likelihood of being true, is the notion that CPS hassles middle (and upper) class borderline abusers more because they can. When dealing with lower class people, their options are fewer, so they sort of give up, while with middle and upper class parents you can put them through the ropes and they’ll take it. Really? My experience was pretty much the opposite. Everyone from the mandated reporters (medical and school personnel) to CPS workers seemed to be intimidated by middle-class parents (forget upper-class) , so that when we got reports about middle class families, they tended to be anything but borderline. Either it was clearly a bogus report or it was clear that someone had abused the child. If Lisa Steinberg [http://childabuse.fiu.edu/statistics.php](http://childabuse.fiu.edu/statistics.php) had come from a working class or poor family, I think her teachers would have reported her bruises. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/26 "2014-01-06T16:01:26Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > This is internally inconsistent. > > The fact that CPS has all this power is all the more reason to avoid making them suspicious of you or otherwise alienating them. CPS is already suspicious if they are speaking to you. There will never be a non-adversarial CPS discussion unless initiated by the parent. There is no reason to ever speak to them. I think it’s fairly accepted that speaking to the police is not in your best interest - the same applies with CPS as well. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/27 "2014-01-06T16:11:05Z")
Isn’t this one of those things that can vary significantly from state to state in the U.S.? I recall hearing that Florida, for example, has aggressive and sometimes draconian CPS procedures, where in other states it’s much harder for a situation to result in heavy-handed CPS action. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/28 "2014-01-06T16:11:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There is a school of thought which maintains that some CPS workers, especially in certain areas, tend to come from lower class backgrounds in which child abuse is fairly common and they resent **the fact that middle class parents do not abuse as frequently**. I’m a little skeptical of this part ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/29 "2014-01-06T16:17:46Z")
> [@zoid](#): > > I have no doubt his wife embellished the story quite a bit to the cops but once they confirmed he did in fact hit the kid their attitude was “fuck it - arrest him and let the court figure it out.” People tell you what they want to tell you- it’s really unlikely that your friend would have told you he bruised the kid or even that the kid had bruises unrelated to the swat . Which is not to say that the cops didn’t take the attitude of “let the court figure it out” but they would have had to accuse him of a crime, and I don’t believe a simple swat to your own child is a crime anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![zoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zoid/32/336_2.png) [@zoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoid)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/30 "2014-01-06T16:21:59Z")
Well that’s just it - he claims he gave the kid a swat, she probably claims he beat the kid, so the cops throw up their hands and say this is above our pay grade, arrest him and let the judge decide. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/31 "2014-01-06T16:27:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Parents arrested](http://www.leaderherald.com/page/content.detail/id/522774/Charges-against-parents-dismissed.html) for failing to file homeschooling paperwork – even tough they had filed before the arrest. Does this have anything to do with discipling children? Or CPS? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/32 "2014-01-06T16:28:56Z")
> [@Incubus](#): > > As for the couple that spent $3,000 to clear their name, why waste the money on lawyers? CPS will interview the parents and come by the house to see if there is any neglect. If there isn’t, they close the case. CPS reports are not open to the public; its not like some nosy person can do some digging and find out that someone reported them allegedly leaving their baby in the carseat. It really depends where you are and who you’re dealing with. CPS in Tampa, Florida is going to be totally different from CPS in Oklahoma City, which in turn will be dramatically different from CPS in Edmonton. Different laws, funding levels, staff quality, the works, and often radically different capabilities within the same agency. CPS in Toronto is infamously incompetent, simply because little is spent on it; the job pays little, and so the people who end up doing it are disproportionately stupid and lazy, so we’ve had cases of children being murdered while the family was under CPS supervision, while CPS swoops in on nothing complaints. But you could go to another city and find a quality of service ten times better jsut because the department’s better run. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/33 "2014-01-06T16:40:07Z")
Our daughter called CPS on me when she was fifteen. They took it very seriously. Background: She had been sexually assaulted by a teacher and her boyfriend died after coming home from the Gulf War. Although we provided help she went a little nutty after that, started using drugs, became depressed, the whole syndrome. I had attempted to have a discussion with her and she was out of control. I didn’t handle it well. I grabbed her by both upper arms and sat her down on her bed. Hard. It left several fingerprint bruises on her arms. After an intensive investigation I was told that any further reports of abuse would result in charges against me. So after that we walked on eggshells around her and she went totally out of control. It threw our family out of balance right when we needed extra firmness and commitment and she needed less power and control. She left home at sixteen and we were essentially helpless to support her. Eventually she got herself together but those were scary times. We were so afraid for her. I don’t blame CPS because it was just a series of isolated events not taken in context. And I am glad they take their job seriously. In our case we all could have used help rather than suspicion and condemnation. Perhaps if they’d have dug deeper they could have made some recommendations. But those people are assailed on all sides and usually seriously understaffed. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/34 "2014-01-06T16:45:33Z")
I should also note another reason that people who did not abuse their children are sometimes treated worse by CPS than people who did: because they try to fight the system. Sometimes the guilty party will acknowlege that their guilt, attend the anger management or parenting class or whatever, and it’s done - they’ve fulfilled CPS procedures and can move on. The guy who’s really innocent refuses to go along with this, and thus is officially still a danger and unfit parent. (This also applies to the sentencing and parole phases in criminal cases.) > [@doreen](#): > > Really? My experience was pretty much the opposite. Everyone from the mandated reporters (medical and school personnel) to CPS workers seemed to be intimidated by middle-class parents (forget upper-class) , so that when we got reports about middle class families, they tended to be anything but borderline. Either it was clearly a bogus report or it was clear that someone had abused the child. That has not been the experience of people I know. And while from your perspective, you say that CPS workers seemed to be intimidated by middle class parents (a bit hard to understand, BTW - what could middle class parents do to CPS workers?) what I can tell you is that middle class parents are very intimidated by the prospect of CPS. Which is not to say that parents walk around quaking with fear about CPS, or even that they alter their regular behaviour in any way, discipline-related or otherwise. But that people who find themselves in situations that might be interpreted as abuse - mostly when some freak accident happens, but also parents of kids who have weird medical conditions - get to be very agitated about the possibility of CPS intervention. Everyone has heard horror stories. > [@](#): > > If Lisa Steinberg [http://childabuse.fiu.edu/statistics.php](http://childabuse.fiu.edu/statistics.php) had come from a working class or poor family, I think her teachers would have reported her bruises. I don’t think you can prove anything from one particular incident anyway, but to clarify, I’m talking about once you get into the system. I’m not discussing outside mandated reporters. What you say is very likely true there. (Though I don’t think it’s about intimidation. Just that lower class parents fit the abusive stereotype better.) > [@Bone](#): > > CPS is already suspicious if they are speaking to you. There will never be a non-adversarial CPS discussion unless initiated by the parent. There is no reason to ever speak to them. Suspicious is not an either-or dichotomy. There’s more suspicious and less suspicious. As you note, CPS can put you in for a lot of trouble based on a relatively low level of proof. IMO raising their suspicions is a very foolish thing to do. > [@](#): > > I think it’s fairly accepted that speaking to the police is not in your best interest - the same applies with CPS as well. I don’t think it’s “fairly accepted”, though there is certainly a school of thought which maintains this. IMO, you’re on slightly safer grounds alienating the police than alienating CPS, because as noted the standards of proof are a lot higher for criminal charges. But this is a factor in refusing to talk to the police as well. You risk having a lot of ambiguous evidence being interpreted in ways unfavorable to you by cops who have a “gut feeling” that you’re guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/35 "2014-01-06T16:49:16Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > her boyfriend died after coming home from the Gulf War A bit OT, but your 15 year old daughter had a boyfriend over 20 years old? If so, I can only assume your parenting skills were very questionable, and perhaps contributed to her delinquency. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/36 "2014-01-06T16:54:48Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Most of the more draconian CPS stories I’ve heard have ended up being BS on further examination. I agree. I’ve heard quite a few stories on how the CPS were “out of control,” had the parents arrested for talking harshly at their children, etc. In each case there was _much_ more to the story. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/37 "2014-01-06T16:54:51Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > ETA: I’m also aware that some people, like my mother when we were growing up, define discipline as “visible injuries”. That’s not what I’m talking about; the word is actually more about guidance than punishment. Perhaps the parents who are afraid of CPS don’t understand that. Those kinds of parents SHOULD be afraid of CPS, and they should take a parent class or two. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/38 "2014-01-06T17:06:03Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > A bit OT, but your 15 year old daughter had a boyfriend over 20 years old? If so, I can only assume your parenting skills were very questionable, and perhaps contributed to her delinquency. I have to take whatever responsibility is mine in the case of a child going astray. Over the years I think I’ve done that and it’s all water under the bridge now. Regret doesn’t serve me well. Making amends has. He graduated from high school and went into the service. I may have my time line some mixed up as this was twenty-five years ago and it all blends together. I remember him as a good boy - clean and honest. His father was the chief of police and they were friends of ours. Guess it all depends on what you are thinking boyfriend means, too. They went to school together. He was home on leave. It’s hard not to feel defensive when one’s parenting skills have been called into question. Yeah, we made mistakes and overall tried really hard to be good parents. Have you ever had a child who is out of control? If you have you certainly understand how little control you have when nothing works anymore. Drugs and depression are tough enemies for a parent to combat. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/39 "2014-01-06T17:11:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > And while from your perspective, you say that CPS workers seemed to be intimidated by middle class parents (a bit hard to understand, BTW - what could middle class parents do to CPS workers?) what I can tell you is that middle class parents are very intimidated by the prospect of CPS. The same thing they can do to doctors and teachers- send the lawyers out and in the case of CPS workers, the politicians too. Which is not to say the parents aren’t intimidated as well, but it just hasn’t been my experience that CPS workers make middle class parents jump through hoops becasue they can. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954/40 "2014-01-06T17:26:35Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I should also note another reason that people who did not abuse their children are sometimes treated worse by CPS than people who did: because they try to fight the system. > > Sometimes the guilty party will acknowlege that their guilt, attend the anger management or parenting class or whatever, and it’s done - they’ve fulfilled CPS procedures and can move on. The guy who’s really innocent refuses to go along with this, and thus is officially still a danger and unfit parent. (This also applies to the sentencing and parole phases in criminal cases.)… There are a lot of horror stories floating around of people supposedly abused by the criminal justice system for claiming innocence. Some people plead guilty, get six months probation, pay lip service to the classes (“yes, I did it, yes, I learned my lesson uh huh mmkay?”) and end up being left alone with a minor record. Those who fight the charges sometimes end up incarcerated for months or even years. Supposedly, in some jurisdictions, denying guilt results in an automatic (either de jure or as a matter of practice) denial of parole since obviously you are very dangerous because you won’t admit what you did and admitting guilt is the first step to recovery… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parents-who-wont-discipline-their-children-because-theyre-afraid-of-cps/677954.md?page=3)