# Paris is Burning **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523 "2015-11-14T03:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/181 "2015-11-15T16:23:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > But the guys we train apparently flee as soon as they come under fire. The Iraqi national army is not the Kurds nor the militias as gigo writes > [@GIGObuster](#): > > What I understood was that the ones that flee were mostly Sunni, as in not wanting to fight for the current regime in Iraq, exactly what has been documented, plus the corruption in the army versus the militias that is why I highligted the political component, it is not the national Iraqi army that is effective. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/182 "2015-11-15T16:30:59Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > But the guys we train apparently flee as soon as they come under fire. That’s if we’re lucky. We could easily be training and arming our enemies. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/183 "2015-11-15T16:41:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The fact is, European nations are much more likely to be the target of such attacks. France, in particular has a large, disaffected Muslim population and they (France) are a major player in the battle against Da-esh. The US, while clearly the leader in the are against Islamists in the M.E still has a relatively assaulted Muslim population compared to European countries. We got mostly the educated classes, and Europe has been getting a large portion of the less educated. The 1st generation is simply glad to be in a liberal democracy, but the 2nd generation often feels disaffected and alienated. [QUOTE=carnivorousplant] Thank you, John. [/QUOTE] I don’t think thats the case. While the “uneducated” meme is popular as a simple explanation; it does not hold up to scrutiny; militants tend to be more educated then most; 3/4 London bombers were University grads, while the fourth was married to a white woman. [More importantly](http://www.dawn.com/news/1145761) > [@](#): > > **Intelligence agencies have long since given up on trying to outline a single profile for those who join militant groups**. Studies find a wide mix of poor and wealthy, damaged family backgrounds and well-adjusted citizens — the only constant being the young ages involved. > > “Today, this discourse (of radical Islam) manages to influence young people from very diverse family backgrounds,” said Dounia Bouzar, director of the Centre for Prevention Against Islamic Sectarianism… > …It found 80 per cent of parents declared themselves atheist. Two-thirds were middle class. Almost all their children — 91 per cent — were indoctrinated via the Internet, with some 63 per cent aged between 15 and 21… > …The authors outlined five myths used to convince people that joining religion-inspired militant groups is a good idea. > > **There is the image of the “heroic horseman” which works best for boys, or the “humanitarian cause” that has particular traction among young girls.** > > …That reflects the fact that religion often plays only a superficial role in attracting people to the conflict. > > “They are chasing a fictional dream, and they often have barely any knowledge of what Islam is,” said Marc Sageman, a psychiatrist and former CIA agent in Pakistan… > Most “know nothing about the (Holy) Quran,” adds Sageman. > > “Religion is very much an accessory. It’s an Islamist community, but it could just as easily have been anarchist, or anti-fascist,” Sageman told AFP. > > **It was a point underlined recently when it emerged that would-be religious militants bought the books “Islam for Dummies” and “The Quran for Dummies” over Amazon before leaving Britain last year.** > > But as young recruits start converting to the cause from their own diverse social groups, spotting a potential militant becomes ever harder. > > “They recruit around themselves,” said Jean-Pierre Filiu, an expert on the Arab world cited by Le Monde. > \*\* > “That means that today there is no longer a typical profile for jihadists.\*\*" I do think that the US does a better job at integration than any European country bar none. People are very much invested in the US and they are, feel and are generally considered “American”. In Europe, their “outsider” status is hard to get away from, even after generations in place. Its the intangibles that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/184 "2015-11-15T16:51:39Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > . In Europe, their “outsider” status is hard to get away from, even after generations in place. > > Its the intangibles that matter. Yes,I add this is the most important > [@](#): > > “Religion is very much an accessory. It’s an Islamist community, but it could just as easily have been anarchist, or anti-fascist,” Sageman told AFP. the commonality is young, motivated males seeking meaning and feeling excluded socially. The idea that the DAESH has a well-constructed religious appeal is not founded on reality. they are appealing to the romantic action and meaning sought by a profile of disaffected youth. For the continental europe like the France you can see it in the language. Too many French will refer to any African origin, any Maghrebine origin person as an “immigrant” even though they are _ **third generation born in France** _. Indeed if you meet a Maghebine origin French, the liklihood he is native French born is high, of the 3.5 millions or so of the Maghrebine origin in France, about 2 million are native born in France. (2005) You do not see this in the anglo-saxon countries. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/185 "2015-11-15T16:56:41Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yes,I add this is the most important > > the commonality is young, motivated males seeking meaning and feeling excluded socially. The idea that the DAESH has a well-constructed religious appeal is not founded on reality. they are appealing to the romantic action and meaning sought by a profile of disaffected youth. > > For the continental europe like the France you can see it in the language. > > Too many French will refer to any African origin, any Maghrebine origin person as an “immigrant” even though they are _ **third generation born in France** _. Indeed if you meet a Maghebine origin French, the liklihood he is native French born is high, of the 3.5 millions or so of the Maghrebine origin in France, about 2 million are native born in France. (2005) > > You do not see this in the anglo-saxon countries. Is the US an “anglo-saxon” country? Because you do see that here with Asians and Hispanics. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/186 "2015-11-15T17:14:27Z")
In the US in the 1970’s you didn’t see a lot of 3rd generation micks sneaking back to Ireland to join the IRA, but its biggest source of revenue was collection boxes in bars for NORAID. Of course, the cover story was that if was all about taking the poor kids of Belfast and Derry off to summer camp. Is it really that hard to recruit 50,000 young guys if the come-on is a license to kill and rape? Dress it up with religious righteousness and restoration of the caliphate, sure. But killing and rape is an inducement right up there with forgiveness of student loans. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/187 "2015-11-15T17:15:31Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is the US an “anglo-saxon” country? Because you do see that here with Asians and Hispanics. I do not understand your comment. I have never heard an american call someone 3rd generation an “immigrant.” Yes in French usage we call the USA “anglo saxone” - it only means English speaking and political tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/188 "2015-11-15T17:16:23Z")
Whilst I agree with **AK84** s comments on them being highly educated, a substantial majority _do not agree_ with the liberal values we hold on personal life. Such as gay marriage, children out of wedlock, the types of clothing a woman should wear etc. This is what the disaffection and alienation _really_ means when talked about their motives. Whilst such views on their own cannot turn someone into a terrorist, they can be used in the construction of a narrative of where their values need to be defended against this type of ‘immorality’ even going to lengths of using violence to state this. It wasn’t surprising that ISIS stated Paris a place of ‘immorality’ for justification of their attacks. This correlates with what I've said. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/189 "2015-11-15T17:18:34Z")
> [@Slithy\_Tove](#): > > In the US in the 1970’s you didn’t see a lot of 3rd generation micks sneaking back to Ireland to join the IRA, Did they even try to recruit? I think there was not an effort, no? Whereas the DAESH does try hard to recruit, they need them. this says something. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/190 "2015-11-15T17:27:17Z")
No, the IRA knew they already had enough malleable punks of domestic vintage. What they wanted was the Irish-Americans who’d made good in the US to kick in financially. Now, if there’d been lucrative oifields in N Ireland to capture, and a need for large armies to hold that territory, the story migh be the same. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/191 "2015-11-15T17:39:10Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > I do not understand your comment. I have never heard an american call someone 3rd generation an “immigrant.” Well, it happens. And it’s more than just calling someone an immigrant. It’s assuming that they must be. Or that they somehow are not actual Americans like “white people”. It’s the famous exchange: White person: Where are you from? Asian Person: Cleveland. White Person: No, where are _really_ from? And, of course, many Hispanics who’ve been here for generations are not only sometimes considered immigrants, but _illegal_ immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![IDtenT\_Error](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@IDtenT\_Error](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IDtenT_Error)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/192 "2015-11-15T19:33:41Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > > [@Kobal2](#): > > > > Actually, they have a deserved reputation for being sent to shitty places with zero support and fighting hopeless last stands. But they seem OK with that and even proud of the many times they left the field with 98% casualties, so there’s a vicious circle going on there 🙂 > > Yeah, they had one fight where the only survivor was a wooden hand. [Battle of Camarón](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Camar%C3%B3n). Actually there were 3 survivors, plus one who was supposedly dead and left on the field but recovered, and several that were captured during the battle. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/193 "2015-11-15T20:11:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, it happens. And it’s more than just calling someone an immigrant. It’s assuming that they must be. Or that they somehow are not actual Americans like “white people”. > > It’s the famous exchange: > > White person: Where are you from? > Asian Person: Cleveland. > White Person: No, where are _really_ from? > > And, of course, many Hispanics who’ve been here for generations are not only sometimes considered immigrants, but _illegal_ immigrants. You seem to live in a make believe America. Its not like that amongst the real people I live around. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/194 "2015-11-15T20:36:08Z")
> [@FightMyIgnorance](#): > > Is something nobody is suggesting? :dubious: > [@adaher](#): > > Cutting back on our war effort in the hopes they won’t be mad enough to attack us is appeasement. > [@even\_sven](#): > > And who is suggesting that? Anyone who is suggesting that “the west” withdrawing from all involvement in the Middle East will somehow solve the problem. It won’t. All that would happen is that ISIS would consolidate its holdings then find new targets to attack. > [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > This formulation really serves more to obscure than to clarify the real issue, which is that terrorist blowback seems to be a tradeoff of having an interventionist and meddlesome foreign policy in the Middle East. So that leaves us a choice among three options: > > 1. Assume a dramatically less active ME policy > 2. Maintain the status quo, including the current whack-a-mole approach to counterterrorism > 3. Dramatically step up our presence in the ME to implement some kind of final solution with respect to Islamic terrorism; I assume this will involve US-led occupation, as our “regional partners” seem to have neither the will nor the capacity to deal with this scourge themselves. > > So, you tell me which of those strikes you as a better idea. If history is any guide, #3 cannot be done at anything like a reasonable cost commensurate with the problem at hand (deaths due to Islamic terrorism in the West), assuming it can be done successfully at all; and that’s forgetting about collateral damage and unintended consequences. But by all means, spell out what military solution to this problem you have in mind. I don’t think there is a good solution any longer. #1 leaves ISIS in power and allows them to consolidate and secure their territory, then push out for more later on as an even more powerful entity. They are a _de facto_ nation now that they hold a defined territory. #2 is unsatisfactory to “the west” because folks don’t like the notion that a bunch of fanatics are going to randomly pop out of the woodwork and start killing people from time to time. #3 will inevitably result in war crimes, pictures of dead babies, and a lot of dead innocents. All out war could take all terrirtory away from ISIS and kill a crapload of them, but it it would have to be a massive effort with such other players as Russia and China either on board or willing to be truly neutral for it to work. Given that ISIS is, apparently, also bringing down Russian airplanes you might get Russia to go along with the idea but so far they seem to have left China alone so that’s a wild card. It would, as I noted, result in the destruction of cities and a lot of human lives. Given this is the 20th Century, it will also be broadcast live and unedited on the internet. > [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > What will stop ISIS from invading more countries is local geography and balance of power. ISIS has laid claim to a bunch of desert land straddling two quasi-failed states. But is ISIS going to invade Jordan? Turkey? Iran? > > Germany in 1938 had both the intent and (for a time) the _capacity_ to invade lots more countries, which meant that the Munich agreement at best delayed the inevitable showdown. I don’t see how the situation with ISIS is analogous to that. Germany didn’t always have the capacity to invade others, for a long while it was a bunch of small, warring states. The capacity to wage serious wars of conquest did not arise overnight. I’m not saying ISIS could invade, say, Turkey _right now_ but if “the west” withdrew entirely from the Middle East they would be free to build up their holdings and later on create a serious army and go out conquering again. A few iterations of conquer and consolidate and they’ll be much more threatening. They aren’t going to go away on their own. > [@Magiver](#): > > They recently attacked Beirut and Paris. I don’t understand your argument at all. And their kill ratios are substantial. ^ This. Can they invade France and take it over? No - not right now - but they sure as hell can _attack_ the capital of a first world nation. Take the pressure off them for a few years, or a generation, and they’ll be a lot worse than that. Give them time and breathing room to get/build better weapons and develop better strategies and they’ll be back, but much more effective at killing. Meanwhile, their attacks are costly in both blood and treasure, it impedes normal life, and I don’t think people will tolerate it indefinitely. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, it happens. And it’s more than just calling someone an immigrant. It’s assuming that they must be. Or that they somehow are not actual Americans like “white people”. > > It’s the famous exchange: > > White person: Where are you from? > Asian Person: Cleveland. > White Person: No, where are _really_ from? > > And, of course, many Hispanics who’ve been here for generations are not only sometimes considered immigrants, but _illegal_ immigrants. > [@madsircool](#): > > You seem to live in a make believe America. Its not like that amongst the real people I live around. ^ Nope, I’ve seen scenario **John Mace** describes happen, too. It may, however, be less common in America than elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/195 "2015-11-15T21:02:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They recently attacked Beirut and Paris. I don’t understand your argument at all. And their kill ratios are substantial. Obama called them the junior varsity and refuses to engage them with boots on the ground. Its true. Its all Obama’s fault. Santorum told me so.:rolleyes::smack: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/196 "2015-11-15T21:15:33Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You seem to live in a make believe America. Its not like that amongst the real people I live around. Alternatively, you need to get out more. [Asian Americans and the Perpetual Foreigner Syndrome](https://web.archive.org/web/20070928140811/http://www.modelminority.com/article676.html) ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/197 "2015-11-16T03:46:20Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You seem to live in a make believe America. Its not like that amongst the real people I live around. You probably live in an area where there are actual minority populations. Most of the people on this board are from lilly white areas where white people act like the butt of 90’s sitcom jokes. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/198 "2015-11-16T04:15:14Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You seem to live in a make believe America. Its not like that amongst the real people I live around. I have to agree. My experience is that it’s a function of accent. People with an accent recognizable as from the US are assumed to be “American.” Meaning as opposed to immigrant. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/199 "2015-11-16T09:15:11Z")
So then in some places in the USA it is more like the France in seeing any non-North european type look as immigrant and in other places more mixed it is not the case, is this what I can understand? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/200 "2015-11-16T09:24:58Z")
Correct. Remember, the US spans across and entire continent. There is significant regional variation, and variation from the most modern, diverse, and urban areas to places are still very much wilderness with few people. In the middle of Iowa farmland (random example) anyone non-white and non-English speaking is going to stand out. In New York City you get everything and there will much less assumption that a non-Caucasian is foreign. As another example of regional variation, while visiting Appalachia once on a trip to see my in-laws we stopped at a shop in a small town where the proprietors identified my spouse as being from that area, by which I mean they not only were able to guess his name but also where he was born based on his appearance. Then they turned to me and in all seriousness said “and what country are you from?” It’s because although we were all white I was from a different white ethnicity they they were (they were Scots/Irish/English/French/Native, I’m mostly Russian) and my slavic traits were sufficient to mark me as “foreigner” in that region. And my accent was markedly different from theirs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523.md?page=11)