# Paris is Burning **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523 "2015-11-14T03:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/61 "2015-11-14T10:25:48Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > … > > I’m just frustrated in between world of tanks games. Good gawd dude, it’s the weekend. 5x weekend at that. Expect to be frustrated. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/62 "2015-11-14T10:27:05Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > Which is easier to predict? The stock market. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/63 "2015-11-14T10:36:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Arrest in Germany ‘linked to Paris attacks’ > > The arrest of a 51-year-old man in Germany last week after firearms were discovered in his car has been linked to the Paris attacks, according to media reports. > > Public broadcaster Bayrischer Rundfunk said German authorities informed French officials about the arrest of the man near the German-Austrian border on November 5. It did not provide a source for its information. > Bavarian state police spokesman Ludwig Waldinger confirmed that firearms, explosives and hand grenades were found. > Mr Waldinger said: “We are providing no further information at this point.” > **[Man held in Germany 'was en route to Paris'](https://www.independent.ie/world-news/man-held-in-germany-was-en-route-to-paris/34200283.html)** > > A 51-year-old man arrested in Germany last week with weapons in his car might be linked to the Paris attacks, the governor of Bavaria has said. According to other news reports about this incident (which occurred more than one week ago), they found 8 AK47 assault rifles in this car as well as TNT and detonators. The suspect has remained silent since and he hasn’t hired a lawyer. In the last couple of months, hundreds of thousands of individuals have entered Germany without any documentation and many haven’t even been processed in at all. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/64 "2015-11-14T10:43:38Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > [Man held in Germany 'was en route to Paris' | Irish Independent](http://www.independent.ie/world-news/arrest-in-germany-linked-to-paris-attacks-34200283.html) > > According to other news reports about this incident (which occurred more than one week ago), they found 8 AK47 assault rifles in this car as well as TNT and detonators. The suspect has remained silent since and he hasn’t hired a lawyer. > > In the last couple of months, hundreds of thousands of individuals have entered Germany without any documentation and many haven’t even been processed in at all. Slight disconnection between 1st and 2nd para: tbf, the refugees coming from Syria aren’t generally driving to Germany. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/65 "2015-11-14T10:47:56Z")
The greatest solidarity with our French brothers and sisters. It is sad the sickness that is the DAESH tendency exists and it must be combatted physically and intellectually, in solidarity with the community and not against it. I am confident in the DGSI will be fully motivated and deployed. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/66 "2015-11-14T10:52:46Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Slight disconnection between 1st and 2nd para: tbf, the refugees coming from Syria aren’t generally driving to Germany. Not all the way from Syria. The man they arrested is believed to be from Montenegro. The point is that hundreds of thousands individuals whose background isn’t known, the majority of them young men (and no, I’m not digging up the cites), have entered the country and nobody is keeping track. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_0bvious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Captain\_0bvious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_0bvious)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/67 "2015-11-14T10:57:12Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > In the last couple of months, hundreds of thousands of individuals have entered Germany without any documentation and many haven’t even been processed in at all. Germans should just fire up the ovens. President Assad [predicted](http://i.imgur.com/tReHAJA.jpg) years ago that terrorists will spread to Europe through illegal immigration and now the chickens came home to roost. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/68 "2015-11-14T11:15:28Z")
Kaboom. You win the thread. You planning a run for high political office anytime soon? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/69 "2015-11-14T11:15:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A CBS security consultant (“talking head”) offered hope for the hostage situation to be resolved peacefully. (Former FBI hostage negotiator.) > > He said that there are two kinds of hostage situations: the ones where it’s planned, and killing hostages is part of the strategy from the start. Those kinds usually end in a raid where some hostages (and all the terrorists) are killed. > > But some hostage situations sort of come about by a blunder, where the terrorists sieze hostages to use as bargaining chips to keep themselves alive. Those kind are very often negotiated out and result in few deaths, often none. Well, it’s now starting to look like the hostage situation was choice #2 and they intended to slaughter the crowd regardless then kill themselves, and they made some progress towards that slaughter before blowing their suicide vests. ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/70 "2015-11-14T11:28:56Z")
IMHO, one of the big questions now is who the terrorists are and where they came from. They could be “home grown” terrorists, i. e. disgruntled French citizens (like in the Charlie Hebdo incident). Or they could be foreigners who have infiltrated the country fairly recently by taking advantage of the unguarded borders. If that’s the case, there is indeed a full scale war going on and the whole European security policy is put into question. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/71 "2015-11-14T11:31:51Z")
> [@Captain\_0bvious](#): > > Germans should just fire up the ovens. Not one of the various, multiple ways to interpret this comment are appropriate to this forum. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/72 "2015-11-14T11:42:14Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > I recall the superficially similar [Mumbai](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks) attacks getting plenty of air as well. If your argument is this is getting far more press than, say, the [Beirut bombing](http://news.yahoo.com/lebanon-mourns-41-killed-bomb-attack-hezbollah-bastion-054928869.html) yesterday, I suppose there is something to be said for that. But these sort of multi-target gunman attacks in major metropolitan areas outside of ( or in Beirut’s case, near to ) warzones are relatively rare. And yes, it is a very prominent “Western” city. Hence the attention. There’s a related term/phrase: > **[Hierarchy of death](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hierarchy_of_death)** > > Hierarchy of death is a phrase used by journalists, social scientists, and academics to describe disproportionate amounts of media attention paid to various incidents of death around the world. > Definitions of the hierarchy of death vary, but several themes remain consistent in terms of media coverage: domestic deaths outweigh foreign deaths, deaths in the developed world outweigh deaths in the developing world, deaths of whites outweigh deaths of darker skinned people, and deaths in ongoing conf... ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/73 "2015-11-14T11:46:01Z")
Just in case anybody’s wondering (I highly doubt it, but eh) : I’m fine, so are my peoples. [QUOTE=coremelt] Don’t forget the French Foreign Legion, which while comparatively small, has a well deserved reputation for kicking ass. [/QUOTE] Actually, they have a deserved reputation for being sent to shitty places with zero support and fighting hopeless last stands. But they seem OK with that and even proud of the many times they left the field with 98% casualties, so there’s a vicious circle going on there 🙂 [QUOTE=Captain Obvious] Does Paris not have “safe zones” in their colleges, like the US does, where people could evacuate in case of emergencies? [/QUOTE] Not really. Colleges within the capital are locked up tight around 21:00, and besides I’m thinking that when people with grenades and kamikaze belts seek large clusters of people to randomly murder, the last thing you want people to do is congregate in larger clusters. Beyond that, the advice of the government was “go home, stay there, calm down”. Which, for me at least, was complicated by the fact that the police shut down the subway I was supposed to ride home :). ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/74 "2015-11-14T11:46:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Strange that you assumed I meant it would cause them to want to ramp up. I was thinking it might cause them to want to get out! Why? The response to an attack on a population is generally “get the bad guys”, not capitulation. Why do you think the French are any different from anyone else? Bad ethnic jokes? > [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Of course, it suits many to not think about the cause of the anger in a rational way - better to say they do these things ‘because they hate freedom’. When in fact it is freedom from the West they want so desperately some are literally happy to blow themselves into a thousand pieces in that cause. ISIS doesn’t want “freedom from the west”, they want to own the world and remake it in their own image. It’s sad people don’t understand that motivation. > [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I really haven’t read anything more than 100 or so dead in Paris(and a bunch of meme stuff on FB). Does Paris need anyone’s prayers? Or help? Is this just the latest news to talk about? > > I’m being extremely curious. I’m probably very ignorant, but not dumb. I’m voting for both of those choices in your case. Either that, or you’re very young. > [@CoolHandCox](#): > > This is going to result in a lot more killing, isn’t it? Yes. ISIS _wants_ war. If their victims don’t retaliate they’ll just keep killing. If their victims do retaliate there will be more killing. ISIS doesn’t believe in live and let live, they believe everyone should be like them or dead. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > I suspect that a lot more could be accomplished by mocking terrorists, and pointing out just how ridiculous they are, than by fearing them or acting like they’re a legitimate threat. First of all, anyone who actually kills people is, in fact, a “legitimate threat”. Second - groups like Charlie Hebdo did, indeed, mock these sorts of folks. The reaction was to kill the people making fun of the bad guys. Since I presume you don’t remember that event [here’s a wiki on it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo#Muhammad_cartoons_and_aftermath). Mind you, I fully support mocking terrorists but don’t have the illusion it’s a risk-free activity and that the people being mocked aren’t “legitimate threats”. > [@Leaper](#): > > My guess is that his angle is more “it’s only important to Westerners when it happens to white people” and that similar atrocities and mass casualties happening to non-white folks are just ignored or shrugged off. Right… that’s why no one outside India heard about the [2008 Mumbai attacks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Mumbai_attacks)… oh, wait, that was front-page news for days. > [@CoolHandCox](#): > > The stock market is down 200 points and I lost money. 100+ people in Paris didn’t lose money, they lost their lives. I don’t care about 200 points on the stock market, and neither do other intelligent people who realize the stock market is going to go back up in a few days but not one of those dead people are going to come back to life. > [@](#): > > By admission, there is front page news everyday, why is today’s news so consuming. Because there are people out there who will walk into a restaurant or concert venue and simply kill people for being there. The more places in the world such people show up the more people around the world fear these guys are going to come to their town and kill them or their neighbors. Why do you have a problem comprehending that? > [@](#): > > My problem is I think I saw too many crappy Paris memes (I don’t even know what that word means) on FB and the like and it just turned me off. How about you try looking up words you don’t know the meaning of? It’s real simple. You go to a search engine like Google, type in the word, and a definition is handed to you. It’s even simpler than when I was your age, when we actually had to pull a book made of paper off a shelf, a type of book called a “dictionary”, and laboriously turn pages until we found the word in question and it’s definition. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/75 "2015-11-14T11:49:06Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Just in case anybody’s wondering (I highly doubt it, but eh) : I’m fine, so are my peoples. We do care - there have been several requests on this board asking French, especially Parisian, Dopers to check in and tell us they’re OK. We’re glad to hear you’re OK - how did you deal with the transportation problem? Did you eventually get home, or did you have to crash elsewhere? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/76 "2015-11-14T11:49:47Z")
After being so ineffective during the 1990s Balkans wars, the European Union slowly ramped up its own collective security mechanisms. Just a couple years ago, they achieved the objective of having several batallions ready for combat, as I understand it. Of course these are composed of country-specific soldiers, and of course they wouldn’t/couldn’t do much except as part of a larger effort (mainly NATO-led, I guess), but has this come up in discussions as a possible tool in the push-back effort? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/77 "2015-11-14T11:50:32Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Just in case anybody’s wondering (I highly doubt it, but eh) : I’m fine, so are my peoples. I was wondering. **clairobscur** has also posted. You are the only two I’m certain are French. I’m glad you’re both OK. > [@](#): > > Actually, they have a deserved reputation for being sent to shitty places with zero support and fighting hopeless last stands. But they seem OK with that and even proud of the many times they left the field with 98% casualties, so there’s a vicious circle going on there 🙂 Yeah, they had one fight where the only survivor was a wooden hand. ---
**Author:** ![dba\_Fred](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c37758/32.png) [@dba\_Fred](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dba_Fred)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/78 "2015-11-14T11:59:26Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > \ > Ultimately, we’re talking about the actions of a small population of deluded pawns, working for manipulative cranks who have little desire or ability and little desire to change anything in the world. **I suspect that a lot more could be accomplished by mocking terrorists, and pointing out just how ridiculous they are, than by fearing them or acting like they’re a legitimate threat.** \< **bolding mine** \> Perhaps you could offer your _sage_ advice to the people at Charlie Hebdo, the Paris-based weekly satirical publication. **Broomstick** beat me to it, darn me for making sure my link worked :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/79 "2015-11-14T12:20:14Z")
> [@](#): > > PARIS — Police officials said they found a Syrian passport on the body of one suicide bomber involved in the Paris attacks at a Paris stadium. > The Islamic State group has claimed responsibility for Friday’s deadly attacks in Paris, France, that left 127 people dead. [http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/isis-claims-responsibility-paris-attacks/npNCB/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/isis-claims-responsibility-paris-attacks/npNCB/) This is also reported by France Info (national news radio in France). ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/80 "2015-11-14T12:23:16Z")
Assuming that this attack was in fact perpetrated by ISIS, is the right response _more_ French/Western involvement in fighting ISIS directly, or _less_? The argument for _more_ is that if ISIS is ruthlessly beaten down on its own turf to a small rump, if not completely eradicated, it will lose the ability to inspire and/or perpetrate attacks like the ones in Paris. The argument for _less_ is that Western engagement against ISIS has been a major recruiting boon for them; they don’t seem to have trouble replenishing their ranks as we pick them off; and going after ISIS directly risks provoking them into committing terrorist attacks. It’s unclear what Hollande plans to do, but I would not be surprised if the response includes a broader military role in Syria/Iraq. That strikes me as a very bad idea. It seems to me the right response to these attacks would include a combination of the following: - Better policing and more resources devoted to gathering and sharing intelligence - Resisting the urge to demonize Muslims generically - Reducing the West’s direct military engagement in the Middle East - Accepting the fact that, like mass shootings, these events cannot be entirely prevented but their frequency can be reduced via the measures above [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523.md?page=5)