# Paris is Burning **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523 "2015-11-14T03:02:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/141 "2015-11-15T01:26:55Z")
> [@boffking](#): > > What about Dylan Roof, or the attack on Gabrielle Giffords, or the many small attacks by white supremacists? Not all terrorists are muslim. They were mentally ill single individuals not killing to advance the agenda of an organization which they were a member. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/142 "2015-11-15T01:42:35Z")
I’m curious what ISIS thinks it will accomplish in its most exaggerated goal plans; does it seriously think the entire West will adopt sharia law, pay tribute and let ISIS have diplomatic recognition or something? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/143 "2015-11-15T01:52:00Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Dude, seriously? Germany in 1938 had a larger military budget than any of its immediate neighbors. They had a tremendous industrial base and had a legitimate shot at a bid for continental hegemony. Yes, ISIS can threaten the safety of various Western countries, in the same sense that mass shooters or domestic right-wing terrorists can. Not hard to do, given how open our societies are. But they pose nothing like the threat of Nazi Germany and it’s silly to invoke the ever-tired Munich analogy to argue for more robust action against them. Let us keep this in mind: A terrorist organization that can mount an attack that kills hundreds – or even, in the case of 9/11, thousands – is still only a terrorist organization, and is not an existential threat or serious military threat to any country. It has no _Wehrmacht,_ nor the industrial and organizational basis for such. The Israelis deal with this sort of thing routinely; they mourn their dead when it happens, but Israel keeps ticking along, and the Palestinians do not represent and never have represented the kind of threat Israel’s nation-state neighbors have in the past. Terrorism is a resort of factions who are too weak to win on the battlefield. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/144 "2015-11-15T02:35:10Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > A question for the board. The US has been pretty successful foiling terrorist plots since 9/11. The would-be underwear bomber, the would-be Times Square bomber, a bunch of other random plots over the years, etc. The Boston bombers slipped through the cracks, but generally we have not experienced much in the way of large-scale Islamic terrorism since 9/11. Is the US just doing a better job than France when it comes to policing and intelligence, or is the recent frequency of attacks in France more a reflection of its demographics and geographic position? Could France address the problem by emulating whatever the US is doing in its (domestic) approach to counter-terrorism? I too have wondered why this was staged in France and not the USA. I am glad that I did not ask the question and receive ridicule and sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/145 "2015-11-15T02:56:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Let us keep this in mind: A terrorist organization that can mount an attack that kills hundreds – or even, in the case of 9/11, thousands – is still only a terrorist organization, and is not an existential threat or serious military threat to any country. It has no _Wehrmacht,_ nor the industrial and organizational basis for such. The Israelis deal with this sort of thing routinely; they mourn their dead when it happens, but Israel keeps ticking along, and the Palestinians do not represent and never have represented the kind of threat Israel’s nation-state neighbors have in the past. Terrorism is a resort of factions who are too weak to win on the battlefield. What you’re referring to is symmetrical warfare where the parties are evenly matched and use similar strategies. What the terrorists are engaging in is asymmetric warfare where unconventional strategies are used. I see no benefit in discussing such strategies but I’ll just review 9/11. 19 terrorists used credit cards to gain access to 4 very large, very expensive fuel air bombs that killed thousands and brought down 2 very large buildings. They garnered cooperation through the use of box knives. at $1 a knife that’s a total investment of $19. The entire operation took less than 2 hrs. What weapon(s) in conventional warfare could the military use to accomplish the same task and how much would it cost? After you answer that how would you apply it to a ghost army that could be living next door to you without your knowledge? ISIS knows we live in an open society where political correctness demands we ignore any demographic link to these threats. [They will infiltrate using the refugee crisis](http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/isis-fighters-infiltrating-syrian-refugees-uk-is-warned/article/2572051) and we will use taxpayer money to pay for that process. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/146 "2015-11-15T02:56:41Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I too have wondered why this was staged in France and not the USA. > I am glad that I did not ask the question and receive ridicule and sarcasm. All I ridiculed were his examples of America’s thwarting of terrorist plans. Both were actually examples of dud bombs with the perpetrators being caught after triggering the device. Eta: I guess I also ridiculed the “if we don’t include Boston” bit. But I answered his questionearnestly. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/147 "2015-11-15T03:04:28Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I’m curious what ISIS thinks it will accomplish in its most exaggerated goal plans; does it seriously think the entire West will adopt sharia law, pay tribute and let ISIS have diplomatic recognition or something? They would like the West to declare Islam the enemy, batten down the hatches so that Muslim people are no longer welcome, and start sending troops over, ideally in as heavy handed a way possible. They want to drive a wedge between Islam and everything else, so that moderate, globalized, modern Islam becomes impossible. They want Muslim people to see the West as the enemy, and to that they want the West to see Islam as the enemy. They want there to be no common ground between the two. They want Muslim people to suffer, so that they can become resentful and angry. And they want that suffering to happen in isolation. This accomplished the twin goals of giving their ideology a population to grow in, and to continue to drain the West of money, international credibility, internal political will, and ultimately our values. They want to piss us off into an extreme reaction, so that we waste resources and ultimately look horrible to everyone. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/148 "2015-11-15T03:42:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > All I ridiculed were his examples of America’s thwarting of terrorist plans. Both were actually examples of dud bombs with the perpetrators being caught after triggering the device. > > Eta: I guess I also ridiculed the “if we don’t include Boston” bit. But I answered his questionearnestly. Dude…they werent designed to be duds…we caught a break. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/149 "2015-11-15T03:52:42Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Dude…they werent designed to be duds…we caught a break. WTF? Of course I know that. Donald Rump said “the US has been pretty successful foiling terrorist attacks” and gave those as example. Those aren’t examples of the US foiling attacks - unless you think the CIA snuck silly putty in to their plastique. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/150 "2015-11-15T04:09:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They garnered cooperation through the use of box knives. at $1 a knife that’s a total investment of $19. The entire operation took less than 2 hrs. You have to figure in the cost of the plane tickets and the cost of learning how to fly the planes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/151 "2015-11-15T05:04:50Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > A question for the board. The US has been pretty successful foiling terrorist plots since 9/11. The would-be underwear bomber, the would-be Times Square bomber, a bunch of other random plots over the years, etc. The Boston bombers slipped through the cracks, but generally we have not experienced much in the way of large-scale Islamic terrorism since 9/11. Is the US just doing a better job than France when it comes to policing and intelligence, or is the recent frequency of attacks in France more a reflection of its demographics and geographic position? Could France address the problem by emulating whatever the US is doing in its (domestic) approach to counter-terrorism? The fact is, European nations are much more likely to be the target of such attacks. France, in particular has a large, disaffected Muslim population and they (France) are a major player in the battle against Da-esh. The US, while clearly the leader in the are against Islamists in the M.E still has a relatively assaulted Muslim population compared to European countries. We got mostly the educated classes, and Europe has been getting a large portion of the less educated. The 1st generation is simply glad to be in a liberal democracy, but the 2nd generation often feels disaffected and alienated. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/152 "2015-11-15T05:19:55Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > They would like the West to declare Islam the enemy, batten down the hatches so that Muslim people are no longer welcome, and start sending troops over, ideally in as heavy handed a way possible. > > They want to drive a wedge between Islam and everything else, so that moderate, globalized, modern Islam becomes impossible. They want Muslim people to see the West as the enemy, and to that they want the West to see Islam as the enemy. They want there to be no common ground between the two. They want Muslim people to suffer, so that they can become resentful and angry. And they want that suffering to happen in isolation. > > This accomplished the twin goals of giving their ideology a population to grow in, and to continue to drain the West of money, international credibility, internal political will, and ultimately our values. They want to piss us off into an extreme reaction, so that we waste resources and ultimately look horrible to everyone. Money is just a number in a database. What matters is wealth and the West has tremendous wealth and capabilities. The only thing being drained is patience. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/153 "2015-11-15T05:22:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > You have to figure in the cost of the plane tickets and the cost of learning how to fly the planes. Visa paid for the plane tickets. You could include the cost of learning to fly if you like. It doesn’t change the asymmetric argument by 10,000 percent. The planes cost hundreds of millions of dollars. In reality they never learned to fly an airplane. They didn’t take off or land which is the only real skill involved in general aviation. What they were flying was far more complex. They never learned power management or the concept of safe operating speeds. Essentially they were the equivalent of 5 year old children steering their parent’s car without using the gas or brake peddles. They had exceeded Vne speed and were lucky the planes held together long enough to smash into a building. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/154 "2015-11-15T07:00:11Z")
> [@Donald\_Rump](#): > > Dude, seriously? Germany in 1938 had a larger military budget than any of its immediate neighbors. They had a tremendous industrial base and had a legitimate shot at a bid for continental hegemony. Yes, ISIS can threaten the safety of various Western countries, in the same sense that mass shooters or domestic right-wing terrorists can. Not hard to do, given how open our societies are. But they pose nothing like the threat of Nazi Germany and it’s silly to invoke the ever-tired Munich analogy to argue for more robust action against them. Why do people insist the two parts of a comparison must be identical for the comparison to be valid? The point is, appeasing the Nazis in 1938 did not stop them from invading more countries and killing more people. Attempting to appease ISIS in 2015 is not going to stop them from invading more countries and killing more people. People arguing for pulling back are operating under the assumption that everyone wants peace. They don’t. Some people actually want war. ISIS is one of those groups of people. They are going to fight and kill whether or not their victims resist. The less opposition they encounter the stronger they will grow because they are no longer just a bunch of terror cells, they actually hold territory and resources now. They are expansionst. If you fail to push back they’ll just expand that much faster. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/155 "2015-11-15T07:02:39Z")
And then there’s the obvious: We are already at war with ISIS, the President declared his intention to fight ISIS at the UN a long time ago. The debate isn’t whether or not we should go to war, but what tactics we should use to win it. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/156 "2015-11-15T07:30:28Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > People thinks drones are self-flying machines programmed to shoot whatever, whenever. There’s a man flying that drone, and a man pushing the button to fire the weapons. It’s just that the man sits in an office far removed from the cockpit of the drone. And that man is flying that drone according to the best available intelligence, not happenstance. The idea isn’t that drones are deciding by themselves whom to kill. But that people deciding whom to target would do so on the basis of computer analysis of patterns suggesting that a particular individual might be tied to terrorist activities, and not necessarily on positive evidences that he is. To the point that they might not even know the identity of this person. ---
**Author:** ![FightMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71e660/32.png) [@FightMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FightMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/157 "2015-11-15T08:28:52Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Attempting to appease ISIS… Is something nobody is suggesting? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/158 "2015-11-15T08:44:34Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Money is just a number in a database. What matters is wealth and the West has tremendous wealth and capabilities. The only thing being drained is patience. You don’t think the effects of 9/11 had an economic impact? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/159 "2015-11-15T09:35:01Z")
> [@FightMyIgnorance](#): > > Is something nobody is suggesting? :dubious: Cutting back on our war effort in the hopes they won’t be mad enough to attack us is appeasement. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523/160 "2015-11-15T09:41:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Cutting back on our war effort in the hopes they won’t be mad enough to attack us is appeasement. And who is suggesting that? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paris-is-burning/737523.md?page=9)