# Parking garage collapse in Lower Manhattan \[2023-04-18\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [April 18, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874 "2023-04-18T22:46:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/21 "2023-04-19T02:59:32Z")
Some SUVs and pickup trucks may be too tall for the limited headroom in a parking garage. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/22 "2023-04-19T03:02:19Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > It’s odd that EVs are the thing to worry about, when SUVs are comparable or heavier, and the move to SUVs has been a much bigger deal for a lot longer. Just took another look at the pic I linked earlier: at least 36 visible SUVs (maybe 2 to 4 minivans, some times hard to tell) plus 2 work vans on that top deck, if there’s any sedan in the shot it’s one of the overturned ones at the bottom. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/23 "2023-04-19T03:08:08Z")
Electric SUVs are now a thing too. And electric pickups. I know my garage can handle large SUV and pickups and electric vehicles. I think the worry is what happens when they are ALL (or nearly) those bigger, heavier vehicles. Since my building rests on that garage it is worth being certain it has the structural capacity to handle this extra load. It probably does but we have to check. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/24 "2023-04-19T03:15:32Z")
My point was the biggest, heaviest SUVs and pickup trucks might exceed the garage height limits (though Googling, that’s seven feet, so few cars are going to be taller than that). ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/25 "2023-04-19T03:16:19Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Electric SUVs are now a thing too. And electric pickups. Ford’s electric F-150 weighs [up to 6,500 lbs.](https://www.jdemmerford.com/research/new-ford-f150-lightning-weight-dimensions.htm) I have to say that’s more than a ton more than the behemoth 1962 Chrysler I learned to drive on, ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/26 "2023-04-19T03:33:51Z")
FWIW the entrance to my garage has a bar that reads 7’ limit. I think most cars and SUVs and pickups can manage unless they are lifted in some fashion or have roof racks with bikes (or whatever) on them. I suspect this would affect cargo vans the most. Although, I notice in the photo @JRDelirious provided above one car does seem to be some sort of work van with ladders on the top. So…I dunno… ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/27 "2023-04-19T04:01:18Z")
fyi, I have tagged this as a breaking news thread. Please treat it as such. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/28 "2023-04-19T06:08:24Z")
God, the picture of the car configuration on the roof reminds me of an advertisement for a game I sometimes get on Facebook and Duolingo. ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/29 "2023-04-19T07:30:50Z")
There’s a members only engineering board that discusses “engineering disasters”, including discussion from forensic engineers. I find it really interesting and helpful for things like this. > **[NYC Parking Garage Collapse - Engineering Failures & Disasters - Eng-Tips](https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=506243)** > > \[link https://abc7ny.com/parking-garage-collapse-financial-district-lower-manhattan-ann-street/13150286/\]https://abc7ny.com/parking-garage-collapse-financial-di ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/30 "2023-04-19T08:05:23Z")
Gift link to New York Times article on the collapse > **[One Dead in Parking Garage Collapse in Lower Manhattan](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/18/nyregion/nyc-parking-garage-collapse.html?unlocked_article_code=k9bGVsry2vbaRfukrb2L9JJ8UR0TW-1SDWggOYrotLBwkv0ENPfoh9kTQquQ40zAjP6XeULHfCn47_OsrHy2nIWdf_d7siSWvzSLUa2PbWdoNhudO_-F8O0l87q7_cXzyHWI6RTqpxWOXzAslHrwy4i0V4tGz9iRAbM98D9qD7V32pLkjdGRXaVooqJZbQArt6bDhbqjGRxoBEVe0fOpcRANaLWwkCsReOL-y3FB8-IR-y2s8punVNVmhX9jMEp01PoTZrh-CNhZ20fuLTdjRHdNWaHNrMFYmcIgMymcEcXVb_6BaR_dUcUPHjlVyC4WSRd_vhkVr_c6AkLfq3KCeKngnLYWaA&giftCopy=2_Explore&smid=url-share)** > > A portion of the four-story Ann Street structure fell in, leaving cars stacked atop one another and rubble down to street level. The garage apparently had structural issues dating back to 2003. There had apparently been plans to fix them in 2010 but perhaps that didn’t happen. Some of the problems cited - cracks in concrete, concrete flaked away from internal steel structure - remind me of some of the issues of the Champlain Towers that collapsed in Florida even if a lot of other details around the collapses differ. I’m sure there will be more information as time passes. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/31 "2023-04-19T10:44:47Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Ford’s electric F-150 weighs [up to 6,500 lbs.](https://www.jdemmerford.com/research/new-ford-f150-lightning-weight-dimensions.htm) > > I have to say that’s more than a ton more than the behemoth 1962 Chrysler I learned to drive on, I’ve had a few of those giant pickup trucks, outfitted with “work” stuff (crane, toolboxes, etc.). The diesel one weighed 9200 lbs. Not sure what caused this particular collapse, but I don’t think EVs are our main concern here in the states. I’d bet on age, deterioration, and maybe some type of collective ownership making repair decisions more difficult. Do civil engineers include some type of “design life” estimate in their drawings? I’ve always wondered about this for big structures. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/32 "2023-04-19T11:14:35Z")
But those giant pick up trucks take up more floor space, too. Electric vehicles may very well weigh more per square foot than other vehicles. If you had a garage with defined spaces that were large enough to hold a large pickup, then it might but matter whether people were driving pickups or teslas. But that’s not how that garage worked. They jammed the cars in as close as possible, every which way. You don’t see a lot of pickup trucks in NYC. One reason is they are too hard to park. They don’t fit in the holes left by other drivers on the street, and can’t maneuver in many of the lots and garages. I suspect age and damage were the primary problems with this garage, but heavier ev’s may well have contributed. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/33 "2023-04-19T11:15:06Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Observe what the roof deck looked like: Did the valet people sort the cars by model? A lot of those cars appear to be parked next to same/similar models. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/34 "2023-04-19T12:25:09Z")
The valet probably sorted them by size/shape, to fit more cars in. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/35 "2023-04-19T13:19:42Z")
I noticed that as well. The one teetering in the edge looks like a Land Rover, as do others in that row. In fact the whole top layer appears to be SUVs, other than the work van with the ladders (which suggests the height clearance was decent). Somebody was very organized, or perhaps a car dealer was using the space for storage. Or, the preferred car in NYC is an SUV. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/36 "2023-04-19T13:36:43Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Somebody was very organized, or perhaps a car dealer was using the space for storage. Or, the preferred car in NYC is an SUV. Or maybe Car Services using it as a holding pen. That class of SUV has taken over the business niche the Grand Marquis/Town Car used to hold in many cities. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/37 "2023-04-19T15:01:05Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > It is important to remember that the battery makers are working hard to make the batteries lighter and longer lasting. The current batteries are made with the third-lightest element in the universe. I’m not optimistic that higher energy densities with heavier elements will result in much weight reduction. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/38 "2023-04-19T15:52:47Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > > [@Spiderman](#): > > > > > …that the engineering specs from 60 years ago are no longer accurate. > > > > > > According to ~~my oracle~~ Google: > > > > > > - 1960 Ford Falcon - 2259 lbs > > > - 2022 Honda CR-V - 3337 - 3569 lbs > > > - 2022 Tesla S - 3648 - 4250 lbs > > No. > > > City Buildings Department records show the three-story structure has been a garage at least since the 1920s, and there are no recent permits for construction. Model T weight - 1200 - 1650 lbs I’m taller than average, but ‘normal tall’ ie. within a standard deviation, not NBA center tall. I’ve been in some parking garages that are scary to walk in, with either 6’ (can’t clear) or 6’6" clearance - can clear with a couple of inches to spare but still I instinctually duck. I don’t know this garage but you can tell it’s an elevator garage; they don’t drive your car up a ramp, they drive it onto an elevator & take it to an upper floor that way. It’s possible that the street level is a bit higher than the middle levels such that a work truck can be driven in there but then need to be parked only on the street level or the roof as the intermediate floors don’t have enough clearance. Or, as someone stated already, the majority of new vehicles are SUVs & that roof is a representative sample of their entire parking load ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/39 "2023-04-19T17:33:32Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > The current batteries are made with the third-lightest element in the universe. I’m not optimistic that higher energy densities with heavier elements will result in much weight reduction. Lithium batteries are only 7% Lithium. Expected future efficiencies in batteries are an overall reduction in the amount of metals needed. The atomic weight of Lithium doesn’t really factor into this. > By weight percentage (g material/g battery), a typical lithium-ion battery comprises about: 7% Co, 7% Li (expressed as lithium carbonate equivalent, 1 g of lithium = 5.17 g LCE), 4% Ni, 5% Mn, 10% Cu, 15% Al, 16% graphite, and 36% other materials ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2023, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874/40 "2023-04-19T18:09:54Z")
> [@JaneDoe42](#): > > The gross weight of an F-150 scales between **6,100 to 7,050 pounds** depending on what body style and equipment you opt for. You have to be careful when comparing weights of vehicles to make sure you’re comparing apples to apples. Curb weight = The weight of the vehicle only, with all the equipment that comes with it, but nothing else. Gross weight = The total weight of the vehicle and everything in it, including passengers, cargo, and fuel. The weights you quoted for the F150 are gross weights according to your post. I’m not sure if the weights you quoted for the Tesla are gross weights or curb weights. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parking-garage-collapse-in-lower-manhattan-2023-04-18/982874.md?page=3)