# Parliament must vote on Brexit: So Saith the Supreme Court of the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034 "2017-01-24T15:11:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/41 "2017-01-25T12:27:30Z")
The Daily Mail, on the other hand, continues its attacks on the judiciary for daring to suggest that Parliament needed to vote on this. Because we can’t let democracy get in the way of democracy, or something like that. I suspect the challenge here will not be the House of Commons but rather the House of Lords, who do seem to take particular enjoyment in stymieing many of the Commons’ more ambitious endeavours. Sometimes I think they just do it for the jollies. Still, better to force the Commons to justify the move than to just wave it through. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/42 "2017-01-25T12:56:13Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > Not that I can see. They do reference “Re Resolution to Amend the Constitution [1981] 1 SCR 753” (para 141) and quote the majority judgement that conventions cannot be legally enforced. That is it, thanks (I just used the colloquial name for it). Must go take a boo. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/43 "2017-01-25T13:30:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I suspect the challenge here will not be the House of Commons but rather the House of Lords, who do seem to take particular enjoyment in stymieing many of the Commons’ more ambitious endeavours. Sometimes I think they just do it for the jollies. Still, better to force the Commons to justify the move than to just wave it through. Both Houses’ committee systems are in overdrive, pumping out reports about the impacts of Brexit. The Lords EU Committee did a batch before Christmas, and they’re not stopping. I think these reports will feed into the debates on Article 50, so when the vote comes, any objections won’t be on the principle of triggering, but through identifying a complete blank page in the Government’s plans. I agree that it looks like it’s inevitable, now, but I’m at least partly reassured that Parliament will be overseeing and getting some evidence and facts in there. Perhaps we can avoid disaster. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/44 "2017-01-25T13:49:10Z")
Article 50 is inevitable but it always has been. When that happens in the spring it’s the trigger for the phony war with the EU to begin to dissipate. All this is so much fumbling foreplay. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/45 "2017-01-25T15:09:14Z")
An important point to note is that Parliament has already implicitly voted to endorse Brexit, on Dec 7 last year. \*"The Commons passed Labour’s motion calling for “the prime minister to commit to publishing the government’s plan for leaving the EU before article 50 is invoked” by 448 to 75 votes – a majority of 373 – after it was amended by Downing Street to “call on the government to invoke article 50 by 31 March 2017”. The vote is non-binding but was a highly symbolic moment as it marked the first time MPs had endorsed the government’s Brexit timetable "\* > **[Brexit: Keir Starmer presses for 'detailed' plan as MPs vote to trigger...](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/dec/07/keir-starmer-calls-for-detailed-brexit-plan-after-mps-vote-to-trigger-article-50)** > > March deadline approved by House of Commons but rifts remain on both sides of the chamber over EU negotiation stategy ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/46 "2017-01-25T16:09:48Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > There are however a few potential rebels (e.g. Anna Soubry MP) who might be enough to make the prospect of government defeat viable. Soubry is my local MP, and she’s [going to vote with the government](https://www.annasoubry.org.uk/sites/www.annasoubry.org.uk/files/2017-01/15th%20January%202017%20.pdf) (at least, as of a week ago). It seems like the opposition and the potential rebels think that they’re more likely to get an acceptable outcome by attempting to force a soft brexit rather than potentially losing a vote which would give the Government free reign. Not sure I agree with that approach, I’d much prefer us to remain in the EU, but I can at least understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/47 "2017-01-25T16:41:23Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Labour are royally fucked on this. There is a very simple equation to be considered and it is captured neatly in the [second bar chart down in this article](http://uk.businessinsider.com/nomura-2-charts-show-why-remain-mps-wont-oppose-brexit-2016-10) > > Put simply, Labour hold twice as many “leave” constituencies as they do “remain” > How can they campaign on a platform of opposition to Brexit and go against two thirds of the seats they hold? I’ve been thinking about this having said much the same last night and I’m now wondering if the dilemma is as clear cut. Labour may hold a lot of constituencies with a majority Leave vote, but that doesn’t mean that _the voters who elected the Labour MP_ voted Leave. IIRC about 75% of Labour voters are reporting that they voted Remain in polls; also there was a large first-time or rare voter turnout in the referendum. Add that to the fact that Referendum votes weren’t counted by constituency and so we can’t be precisely sure which constituencies are Leave and which aren’t, and it’s a lot less clear how big Labour’s Leave problem is. Yes, a Remain MP in a Leave constituency will face opposition, but much of that opposition will come from Tory, UKIP and non- voters who wouldn’t have voted for them anyhow. The question is how many of their 2015 voters will change their vote because their MP voted against/abstained from/spoke out against Article 50. \*Versus \*how many pro-Remain Tories/tactically voting Lib Dems they might pick up from such a stance. On balance this calculus is probably marginally against them but I suspect there are a lot of Labour MPs who might think they have a shot at defending their position and seat. (None of which takes into account that in 2020, with a concrete deal in place, people’s opinions may be more in flux). ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/48 "2017-01-25T16:43:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Soubry is my local MP, and she’s [going to vote with the government](https://www.annasoubry.org.uk/sites/www.annasoubry.org.uk/files/2017-01/15th%20January%202017%20.pdf) (at least, as of a week ago). > > It seems like the opposition and the potential rebels think that they’re more likely to get an acceptable outcome by attempting to force a soft brexit rather than potentially losing a vote which would give the Government free reign. Not sure I agree with that approach, I’d much prefer us to remain in the EU, but I can at least understand it. I hadn’t seen that, thanks. The problem with negotiating a soft Brexit approach is that if you won’t at least threaten to vote down A50 then you have limited leverage. There is scope to delay and use amendments but these are stronger when backed up by a genuine threat. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/49 "2017-01-25T16:49:46Z")
How does Gina Miller come into this? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/50 "2017-01-25T16:55:48Z")
In other news, May has now said that her government \*\*will \*\*publish a white paper, which seems like a bit of a U-turn from yesterday when David Davis was given several opportunities to say so and ducked all of them. Whether it’s published before the Bill is laid before the House is another question. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/51 "2017-01-25T17:13:56Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > The problem with negotiating a soft Brexit approach is that if you won’t at least threaten to vote down A50 then you have limited leverage. There is scope to delay and use amendments but these are stronger when backed up by a genuine threat. I agree with that. I suspect there’s a long of debate behind closed doors about the best way to approach this, but it’s not going to be helped by a fractured opposition. If Labour had a competent leader and the SNP considered the interests of the UK things might be different, but then if Labour had properly campaigned for Remain things would be very different now. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/52 "2017-01-25T17:17:15Z")
> [@Stanislaus](#): > > I’ve been thinking about this having said much the same last night and I’m now wondering if the dilemma is as clear cut. Labour may hold a lot of constituencies with a majority Leave vote, but that doesn’t mean that _the voters who elected the Labour MP_ voted Leave. IIRC about 75% of Labour voters are reporting that they voted Remain in polls; also there was a large first-time or rare voter turnout in the referendum. Add that to the fact that Referendum votes weren’t counted by constituency and so we can’t be precisely sure which constituencies are Leave and which aren’t, and it’s a lot less clear how big Labour’s Leave problem is. Yes, a Remain MP in a Leave constituency will face opposition, but much of that opposition will come from Tory, UKIP and non- voters who wouldn’t have voted for them anyhow. The question is how many of their 2015 voters will change their vote because their MP voted against/abstained from/spoke out against Article 50. \*Versus \*how many pro-Remain Tories/tactically voting Lib Dems they might pick up from such a stance. > > On balance this calculus is probably marginally against them but I suspect there are a lot of Labour MPs who might think they have a shot at defending their position and seat. > > (None of which takes into account that in 2020, with a concrete deal in place, people’s opinions may be more in flux). I think it will be a huge risk for Labour MP’s to vote against Brexit. Most London based Labour MP’s will be fine, but in the Midlands and North I expect a huge backlash if it is perceived that their MP’s are not following the will of the people. I realise the word _perception_ is all important and the phrase _will of the people_ can be subjective. Assuming Labour Mp’s en masse vote against/abstain on Brexit, and the Bill dies or falters. I think we can expect to see pitchforks at the next GE, and UKIP as a cigarette paper from being Her Majesties official opposition. I can’t say how many seats Labour would lose, but am confident that at a rough guesstimate up to a third(of an already bare bones number) would be under serious threat of losing their seats. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/53 "2017-01-26T14:21:48Z")
[Article 50: Labour MPs consider resigning over Corbyn’s three-line whip](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/26/corbyn-to-impose-three-line-whip-on-labour-mps-to-trigger-article-50-brexit) Corbyn, a quiet Brexiteer, has little choice anyway other than to be seen to support the will of the people as expressed in the referendum. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/54 "2017-01-26T14:25:16Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > [Article 50: Labour MPs consider resigning over Corbyn’s three-line whip](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/26/corbyn-to-impose-three-line-whip-on-labour-mps-to-trigger-article-50-brexit) > > Corbyn, a quiet Brexiteer, has little choice anyway other than to be seen to support the will of the people as expressed in the referendum. He has plenty of choice, and he certainly hasn’t shown any interest in doing what is popular thus far. And this “will of the people” thing remains stupid, given that 48% of “the people” voted to Remain. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/55 "2017-01-26T14:31:08Z")
How about ‘the people have spoken’. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/56 "2017-01-26T15:41:59Z")
Except several MPs represent constituencies that voted heavily to remain. For example, Catherine West, the shadow foreign minister, represents a constituency that voted 81% to remain. Should she ignore her constituents’ opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/57 "2017-01-26T16:32:10Z")
There’s an [interesting](https://www.buzzfeed.com/marieleconte/free-movement-labour?utm_term=.ms3qOqpWL#.qdelzlyrK)analysis here (from 4 days ago) on Labour MPs who have stated a view on maintaining freedom of movement - a topic roughly analogous to views on voting Article 50, presumably - and how they are distributed among Leave and Remain constituencies. By and large, those in Remain constituencies have come out in favour of FoM, and those in Leave against. But there are those swimming against the tide, as the graphic in that article shows: > [@](#): > > Seven MPs representing Remain seats are now opposed to free movement, for example, among them pro-Corbyn Clive Lewis, the shadow business secretary and MP for Norwich South. > Lewis, who campaigned to remain in the EU then reform it, as part of the Another Europe Is Possible campaign, voiced no specific opinion on free movement before the vote. But he told The Guardian in November that there was a need ” to acknowledge that free movement of labour hasn’t worked for a lot of people”. > [@](#): > > Opposition to freedom of movement seems more common among MPs believed to have aspirations to post-Corbyn leadership positions in the party,” he said, naming – among others – Caroline Flint, Tom Watson, Lisa Nandy, Yvette Cooper, Angela Rayner, Keir Starmer, Gloria de Piero, and Clive Lewis, all of whom have been touted as leadership material and are against free movement. > He added: “It is particularly notable that of the seven MPs representing Remain seats who are now opposed to free movement, five are people thought of as potential post-Corbyn leading lights – Starmer, [Chuka] Umunna, [Rachel] Reeves, [Hilary] Benn, and Lewis. > “So, if I had to guess, the emerging pattern of support reflects a mix of local responsiveness and national-level ambition. And the latter reflects an awareness that unreformed freedom of movement is a) not very popular with the electorate…or the segments Labour needs to win and retain in particular, and b) is probably not going to survive the Brexit process given Theresa May’s statements so far. Events have somewhat overtaken this analysis but it’s interesting that leadership contenders seem to see pro-Brexit stances as being the long-term bet. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/58 "2017-01-26T16:33:13Z")
…and indeed Clive Lewis has just let it be known that he will vote for the Bill, as the above analysis would have predicted. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/59 "2017-01-26T16:41:14Z")
Hahaha! [This](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/jan/26/brexit-article-5-bill-david-davis-theresa-may-accused-of-grovelling-after-praising-trump-for-renewing-america-politics-live?page=with:block-588a24dbe4b0f1550c0d8c15#block-588a24dbe4b0f1550c0d8c15)is what he said last week: > [@Clive Lewis](#): > > It is safe to say that I am deeply concerned at the direction that Theresa May and the Conservative government is taking these negotiations, and the developments that are taking place. I am very mindful of what the majority of constituents in Norwich South voted for, which is remain.\*\* I don’t think what is currently on the table, given the irreversibility of article 50, means that signing article 50 under these conditions is in the best interests of people in Norwich or the country.\*\* However it is the job of the opposition to see what we can get between now and March 31 in terms of assurances and guarantees and I think that will be critical to many people when they come to make their decision on this vote. But we all know how long a week is in politics… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/60 "2017-01-26T16:45:31Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > I think it will be a huge risk for Labour MP’s to vote against Brexit. Most London based Labour MP’s will be fine, but in the Midlands and North I expect a huge backlash if it is perceived that their MP’s are not following the will of the people. I realise the word _perception_ is all important and the phrase _will of the people_ can be subjective. Assuming Labour Mp’s en masse vote against/abstain on Brexit, and the Bill dies or falters. I think we can expect to see pitchforks at the next GE, and UKIP as a cigarette paper from being Her Majesties official opposition. I can’t say how many seats Labour would lose, but am confident that at a rough guesstimate up to a third(of an already bare bones number) would be under serious threat of losing their seats. Is there any reliable, current data on what the sentiment is in the various districts? Is it not possible that, having voted to leave, enough are now regretting that vote so that many PMs could safely vote against EXIT? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034.md?page=4)