# Parliament must vote on Brexit: So Saith the Supreme Court of the UK **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2017, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034 "2017-01-24T15:11:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/81 "2017-01-28T00:16:15Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > Well, it didn’t to Laura Kuenssberg or, we assume, her source Michael Gove. Michael “holds the coats as the big boys bully other people” Gove is, I would suggest, not a reliable source in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/82 "2017-01-28T04:32:07Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Let’s assume Parliament passes Brexit because they feel that they are obligated to under the referendum. QE2 withholds Royal Assent (on the advice of May or not) feeling that on second thought Britishers don’t want Brexit. Is that even remotely probable? No. Just no. 1. The bill is a government bill. May is bringing it forward as a government measure. There is no way she would then turn around and advise HM to refuse assent. 2. The bill is a government bill, implementing a majority decision in a referendum. There is no way HM would set herself against both the government and the people. Please, American Dopers, please accept that the Queen does not refuse assent. It’s been over three centuries since the monarch refused assent. It’s just not going to happen. She’s a constitutional monarch, not a dictator in waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/83 "2017-01-28T05:36:54Z")
The ninety year old Queen has cut out about ninety territories from the British Empire. She’s really, really good at it, but just because she is the world expert at cutting ties doesn’t mean that she does it for shits and giggles. I’m sure she’ll continue to abide by the constitution rather than go rogue and cause an unprecedented constitutional crisis that would result in further diminution of the Crown’s powers and would fail to block the decision of the other parts of Parliament. When you think about it, her role as the Crown in Parliament (Parliament is formed of the House of Commons, the House of Lords, and the Crown) is to protect against tyranny, rather than to try to become a tyrant by failing to follow the constitution in carrying out the Crown’s responsibilities. I suspect that the Queen would be less likely to withhold consent on a bill than she would be to dump Phillip, take Hollande and Tajani as lovers, and re-assert the Crown’s claim over Calais. (That will be covered in the second season of _The Crown_ on Netfilx.) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/84 "2017-01-28T06:06:43Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Let’s assume Parliament passes Brexit because they feel that they are obligated to under the referendum. QE2 withholds Royal Assent (on the advice of May or not) feeling that on second thought Britishers don’t want Brexit. Is that even remotely probable? No. It does not work that way. You’ve asked about this about a dozen different ways over the past couple of years, and the answer is still no. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/85 "2017-01-28T13:45:58Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Michael “holds the coats as the big boys bully other people” Gove is, I would suggest, not a reliable source in this matter. Possibly, though about three months later Sky claimed 2 sources and went public with the story. Yes, perhaps the same pint applies … The Queen may even have posed as devils advocate, at least we know she had an open mind, which is several steps more rational than the single-issue, bleeding heart mind set. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/86 "2017-01-28T18:22:15Z")
If she asked a question about Brexit, what’s wrong with that? She may want to be fully informed on issues, from both sides of the issue, but she knows that she takes the advice of her government. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/87 "2017-01-28T19:31:56Z")
> [@up\_the\_junction](#): > > The Queen may even have posed as devils advocate, at least we know she had an open mind, which is several steps more rational than the single-issue, bleeding heart mind set. Can you tell us what you imagine the “single-issue, bleeding heart mind set” is? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/88 "2017-01-28T20:34:48Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > This is pure fantasy and projection. “Operation Fear” was the term the Leave campaign came up with to distract from the fearmongering on their own side. Nigel Farage actually claimed that if the UK remained there would be [foreign rape gangs in our neighbourhoods](http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/05/nigel-farage-warns-cologne-style-rape-attacks-britain-votes-stay/) and millions of Turks would be flooding our hospitals. And remember that lovely poster he was photographed in front of? Tell me again how that wasn’t stoking fear of immigrants. > > It kind of is. Let’s look at some of the Leave campaigns claims: > > £350million a week for the NHS? Insisted upon throughout the campaign despite facts to the contrary and painted on the side of a bus…until the day after the vote, when [Nigel suddenly seemed surprised that anyone had promised such a ridiculous thing](http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/3-brexit-promises-campaigners-wriggled-8271762)and certainly not him. In fact, if you add up all the promises the Leave campaign made about how the money no longer going to the EU would be spent, it would be eleven times greater than the actual amount of money. > > Favorable trade deals with the EU? Not happening, and not going to happen, for some very obvious reasons. > > Use of the free market? Well, maybe…unless [Norway decides to veto it](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-norway-uk-eu-block-veto-economic-free-trade-area-freedom-of-movement-a7181546.html). > > More jobs for Brits? Nope - [businesses](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/lush-cosmetics-to-move-staff-from-britain-to-germany-following-brexit-vote-a7219076.html) [and jobs](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/davos-big-banks-future-post-brexit-banking-jobs-move-eu-financial-sector-goldman-sachs-hsbc-wef-a7536836.html) [leaving](http://lincolnshirereporter.co.uk/2016/10/no-choice-lincolnshire-firm-quits-britain-brexit/) [the UK](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-latest-news-microsoft-major-companies-pull-business-from-uk-jobs-import-tariffs-eu-single-a7543641.html). > > Preferential treatment by the US? Maybe…depending on what sort of mood Donald (who will be negotiating all trade deals, according to him) is in at the time. > > More control of our borders? Probably not a good time to mention that the agreement that was keeping all those migrants bottled up in France is an EU one. Once the UK leaves France has every incentive to move them on. Guess where they’ll go. > > Lower immigration? Another one they started backing away from almost immediately, changing it to “We’ll be able to control _who_ comes, but obviously we’ll still have immigration.” > > More democracy? We have democratically elected representatives in the European Parliament. Which we will lose, giving us less power as voters. (The fact that the MEPs we’ve been electing have been corrupt assholes is not the EU’s fault.) > > More sovereignty? What does that even mean? Leaving the EU will give more power and money to those in the UK who already have it. The rest of us will have less of both, particularly as a large chunk of the rights UK workers currently enjoy are EU ones. > > Seriously - what are the real benefits of leaving? Because _nothing_ the Leave campaign claimed would happen is going to. > > Um… you may not have noticed that the UK hasn’t left yet. A lot of the financial markets are waiting to see if Article 50 gets triggered. Then you’ll be able to see the effects. > I’m pretty sure it was 1) Immigrants! 2) Sovereignty (whatever that means), and 3) Immigrants! But seriously - I’m curious what you think the top three reasons are if they’re not economic or immigration. > > It doesn’t surprise me that you’re keen to dismiss economic effects, since unlike all the fearmongering of the Leave campaign the concerns of the Remain campaign are actually likely to come to pass (or have already - how’s the pound doing these days?). But every sign thus far shows that Britain will take a significant economic hit and loss of political influence in leaving the EU, with very little benefit of any kind to the vast majority of us. Um, immigration is _already_ being reduced, and Theresa May is giving every indication she’s serious about it. See for example the article below. Yes, there were lies on the pro-Leave side, and the people who lied about NHS funding, for example, should be held accountable for it. But I don’t think it’s correct to say “nothing we were promised is going to happen”. The UK is going to have less immigration than it had before and more control over its laws and internal affairs. Yes, it will take an economic hit, but I think those two concrete benefits will be worth it. > **[Why Theresa May won’t exclude students from the net migration target](https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk-politics/2016/10/why-theresa-may-wont-exclude-students-net-migration-target)** > > The Prime Minister believes the public would view the move as "a fix".  ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/89 "2017-02-16T15:08:01Z")
The PM is blasted as a Little England neo-imperialist in an essay in the NYT: [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/opinion/theresa-mays-empire-of-the-mind.html?emc=eta1&\_r=0](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/opinion/theresa-mays-empire-of-the-mind.html?emc=eta1&_r=0) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/90 "2017-02-16T15:20:02Z")
Meh. Editorials are editorials. I don’t know what May actually wants, but she’s bound and determined to drain the poison chalice she’s been handed. Because the people have spoken. In other news, if Britain drops out of the European Medicines Agency [it may affect the speed in which UK patients get access to new drugs](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-pharmaceuticals-idUSKBN12X121). Or everything might be fine. Yes, that seems more likely. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/91 "2017-02-16T15:49:27Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Um, immigration is _already_ being reduced, and Theresa May is giving every indication she’s serious about it. See for example the article below. If immigration is already being reduced, why do we need to leave the EU to reduce it? And, as noted, it’s not the controlled immigration that is likely to be the issue here if the UK leaves the EU. Also interesting that you should pick an article discussing student numbers. The threat of Brexit is already having a serious effect on UK universities, both in terms of drastically reducing EU student numbers and in the exclusion of the UK from new ERASMUS research projects (which often have a six-year timeframe). Another small but significant economic hit. > [@](#): > > Yes, there were lies on the pro-Leave side, and the people who lied about NHS funding, for example, should be held accountable for it. But I don’t think it’s correct to say “nothing we were promised is going to happen”. The UK is going to have less immigration than it had before and more control over its laws and internal affairs. Yes, it will take an economic hit, but I think those two concrete benefits will be worth it. Worth what? As noted, non-student immigration is already falling and slated to fall further. And as for “more control over laws and internal affairs”, by that argument Scotland should secede in order to have more control over its laws and internal affairs. Heck, _London_ should secede - it clearly had different political views than the rest of the country, and why should the rest of the country dictate what’s best for London, particularly when it will likely have a detrimental effect on the capital? One can \*reductio \*this argument as \*[absurdum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passport_to_Pimlico)\*as you like but it’s a very short journey to get there; it remains a silly, isolationist argument and one I addressed in the post you responded to. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2017, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/92 "2017-02-16T20:41:07Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The PM is blasted as a Little England neo-imperialist in an essay in the NYT: [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/opinion/theresa-mays-empire-of-the-mind.html?emc=eta1&\_r=0](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/opinion/theresa-mays-empire-of-the-mind.html?emc=eta1&_r=0) God that’s embarrassing garbage: > [@](#): > > Tom Whyman (@HealthUntoDeath) is an academic philosopher and freelance writer. Urm, yeah. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/93 "2017-02-17T01:24:03Z")
Aren’t “Little Englander” and “neo-imperialist” basically opposite terms? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/94 "2017-02-17T16:05:49Z")
I know nothing about UK politics, so I won’t address the actual OP. But why are people acting like people saying that people have changed their minds are making shit up? It was widely reported after the vote. Sure, maybe those numbers don’t amount to anything, but it’s not anything that’s been made up. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/95 "2017-02-17T16:16:11Z")
Apparently [Tony Blair](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38996179)is going to be the new anti-Brexit champion, out to change people’s minds on leaving the EU. I suppose it makes sense - if you want someone with first-hand experience of the consequences of the UK rushing into an ill-considered major international action based on lies and misrepresented information and with potential serious and unforeseen negative effects, Tony’s definitely your guy. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/96 "2017-02-17T16:48:39Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > Apparently [Tony Blair](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38996179)is going to be the new anti-Brexit champion, out to change people’s minds on leaving the EU. > > I suppose it makes sense - if you want someone with first-hand experience of the consequences of the UK rushing into an ill-considered major international action based on lies and misrepresented information and with potential serious and unforeseen negative effects, Tony’s definitely your guy. There are serious intelligence indications that the [EU has WMDs](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-radio-and-tv-17512596). I’m just sayin’. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/97 "2017-02-17T16:55:02Z")
I started a thread on this in Elections. It’s a really good speech. It’s the best case for Remain I’ve seen made in months, perhaps ever. And it was always going to suffer from being delivered by Tony Blair. But while it was kind of predictable that Leave would come out attacking Blair rather than the arguments, it has been a bit weird - pace Gyrate - how many left/Remain commentators have focused their response on distancing themselves from Blair rather than picking up the ball and running with it. A lot of people who have been very passionate Remain voices have been very muted in their response. That may be tactical calculation or it may be personal discomfort with agreeing with Blair, but it’s kind of sad that the only person who can give a full-throated argument against the current unchecked march towards Brexit is apparently persona non grata. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/98 "2017-02-17T17:51:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I know nothing about UK politics, so I won’t address the actual OP. But why are people acting like people saying that people have changed their minds are making shit up? It was widely reported after the vote. > > Sure, maybe those numbers don’t amount to anything, but it’s not anything that’s been made up. Even though it was widely reported that people had changed their minds after Brexit the reports themselves were greatly exaggerated(if not false). Reporters in certain news outlets were desperately looking for any way to undermine the referendum result. In the weeks after the Brexit result a couple of polls indicated a few percentage of Brexit voters had changed their minds. These polls were shared all over the media & internet. Other polls that suggested the British public had not changed their minds were less widely reported. The poll results were not made-up but a narrative of _Bregret_ was certainly made-up. [http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/02/bregret-1-2million-brexit-backers-regret-voting-to-leave-the-eu-5980332/](http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/02/bregret-1-2million-brexit-backers-regret-voting-to-leave-the-eu-5980332/) ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/99 "2017-02-17T18:43:27Z")
Nothing cynical in Blair - desperate to be relevant - attaching himself like a limpet to Remain. I notice his speech was in a controlled environment and not in public - I guess we all know why. Fuck off you appalling murderous cu\*t. ---
**Author:** ![up\_the\_junction](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f1d935/32.png) [@up\_the\_junction](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/up_the_junction)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2017, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034/100 "2017-02-17T18:49:23Z")
Fun piece of polling from YouGov - perceptions from northern European countries are quite interesting: > **[Most Brits think the EU needs the UK at least as much as the UK needs the EU...](https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2017/02/08/most-brits-think-eu-needs-uk-least-much-uk-needs-e)** > > But the French and Germans aren’t so convinced… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/parliament-must-vote-on-brexit-so-saith-the-supreme-court-of-the-uk/778034.md?page=6)