# "Partial-birth" abortion ban: What does it accomplish for pro-lifers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2007, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670 "2007-04-18T19:24:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/41 "2007-04-19T04:12:57Z")
[QUOTE=Richard Parker] They actually built into the statute a jurisdictional hook to only apply the statute to interstate commerce as suggested by the \*Lopez \*concurrences. [/quote] Sure, but that merely begs the question of what on earth is interstate commerce when it comes to abortion. You can put a boilerplate “interstate commerce” limitation on pretty much any federal legislation, but that doesn’t really tell you anything about how the statute might be limited by Article I issues. And barring meaningful and ascertainable limitations built into the statute (e.g., the revised Gun-Free Schools Act provision that limited it to guns that have actually traveled in interstate commerce), the practical effect is that the statute presumptively applies to every IDX performed anywhere in the country. It would certainly be amusing to see some OB make the claim that he’s exempt from the statute because his IDX abortions are purely intrastate. If such a case were ever to arise, I’d wager pretty much any sum of money that Scalia and Thomas would suddenly embrace the New Deal case law. Fetuses trump everything with the wingnuts. (Take note, Rudy Guiliani.) Anyway, to get back to the OP, my point about this being a result of Congressional action is that it pretty much establishes that the feds, not just the states, have authority to regulate the reproductive rights of individual citizens. Yikes. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/42 "2007-04-19T04:19:16Z")
[QUOTE=minty green] Sure, but that merely begs the question of what on earth is interstate commerce when it comes to abortion. You can put a boilerplate “interstate commerce” limitation on pretty much any federal legislation, but that doesn’t really tell you anything about how the statute might be limited by Article I issues. And barring meaningful and ascertainable limitations built into the statute (e.g., the revised Gun-Free Schools Act provision that limited it to guns that have actually traveled in interstate commerce), the practical effect is that the statute presumptively applies to every IDX performed anywhere in the country. [/QUOTE] I don’t think it begs the question in a logical sense. It certainly does raise the question of which doctors it actually applies to. I’m not saying that adding the interstate commerce provision makes it bullet-proof. I’m just saying that it’s distinguishable from \*Morrison \*and _Lopez_ because of that clause. ---
**Author:** ![Renee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/renee/32/287_2.png) [@Renee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Renee)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/43 "2007-04-19T11:24:41Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] To quote Randall Terry, “Every woman who dies is a victory for morality.” Hurting or killing women **is** a victory for them; that’s the point of the “pro-life” movement. [/QUOTE] Oh, please. I’m as pro-choice as anyone here and think this law is stupid, but this is absurd. Does anyone know what the law says about finding out a late-term fetus has a severe birth defect that won’t kill it but will basically render the child a vegetable for the rest of its life? Can the woman abort as long as it’s done the more dangerous way, or do viability laws prevent that? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/44 "2007-04-19T12:14:37Z")
[QUOTE=Renee] Oh, please. I’m as pro-choice as anyone here and think this law is stupid, but this is absurd. [/QUOTE] Why ? Wherever these people get the chance, they demonstrate incredible malice towards women. Assuming that they mean laws like this to hurt women is like assuming that the Klan supports a law because it hurts blacks. It’s what they **do**. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/45 "2007-04-19T12:45:32Z")
And of course, **Der Trihs** ’s statement explains why the head of NRLC is a woman, and why the vast majority of crisis pregnancy center staff members are women. Clearly, they must be misogynists who want to cause as much harm as possible to themselves and their fellow women. It’s so obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/46 "2007-04-19T12:51:28Z")
[QUOTE=JThunder] And of course, **Der Trihs** ’s statement explains why the head of NRLC is a woman, and why the vast majority of crisis pregnancy center staff members are women. Clearly, they must be misogynists who want to cause as much harm as possible to themselves and their fellow women. It’s so obvious. [/QUOTE] Women have always been their own worst enemy that way. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/47 "2007-04-19T12:52:16Z")
I will have to ask **Der Trihs** for a credible cite for his Randall Terry quote. And no, “I just remember it” is not a cite. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/48 "2007-04-19T13:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] I will have to ask **Der Trihs** for a credible cite for his Randall Terry quote. [/QUOTE] It’s from a Time magazine article; an interview on the anti abortion Mexico City Policy which killed a lot of women. No cite online that I can find, but you aren’t seriously going to claim that it’s implausible that he did say it, are you ? The man talks like Emperor Palpatine. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/49 "2007-04-19T13:23:53Z")
[From Beverly LaHaye, Founder & Chief Harpy of Concerned Women for America.](http://www.cwfa.org/articles/12824/CWA/life/index.htm) > [@](#): > > “The Supreme Court vote today in the partial birth abortion case was a victory for all Americans. The Court ruled to uphold the Constitution to protect every citizen in the United States. This is a day everyone should celebrate. > > It is a tribute to the hard work for many years of many pro-life groups like Concerned Women for America (CWA) whose mission has been to protect the most innocent in our society. It is also an example of President Bush’s good judgment in appointing judges that exercise judicial restraint and do not create laws out of thin air. > > Although this decision is a triumph for America, life and the pro-life cause, there is much more work to be done. In this decision, the Court recognized the ‘State’s interest in respect for life’ and has provided a basis in law for restoring humanity to unborn children. Life has won in this battle, but the fight is not over. We must continue and renew our efforts to speak on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves.” I inserted paragraph breaks for readability’s sake. [The site that gaves us The War Against Christmas.](http://www.cwfa.org/main.asp) Get your Right Wing Talking Points here! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/50 "2007-04-19T13:26:41Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] It’s from a Time magazine article; an interview on the anti abortion Mexico City Policy which killed a lot of women. No cite online that I can find, but you aren’t seriously going to claim that it’s implausible that he did say it, are you ? The man talks like Emperor Palpatine. [/QUOTE] I already said I wouldn’t take your word for it. Prove it, or withdraw it. That’s how it works in GD. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/51 "2007-04-19T13:41:33Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > So this law will not prevent any abortions. It’s still legal to chop the fetus up inside the uterus and remove it piece-by-piece. It’s just illegal to pull the fetus partially into the cervix and crush its skull. The intact procedure (the one which is now illegal) is quicker and safer. > > I would like to know why pro-lifers think it’s a victory for fetuses that they now have to be ripped apart in utero in a slower and more dangerous procedure. How does this law accomplish anything except to make the procedure more difficult and dangerous to women? It’s all about politics these days, winning the hearts and minds. The more unreasonable the anti-abortion-rights crowd can make the pro-abortion-rights crowd seem, the more people they win to their cause. If they can make the pro-abortion-rights crowd cry loudly in favor of a procedure that the majority of Americans recoil from to a greater degree than they do for ordinary abortions, score one for them. It wasn’t so much about the babies (although no doubt true pro-lifers will be happy if any of the babies are saved by this procedure being banned), but about the fight, about making their opponents advocate a distasteful position. And if the pro-abortion-rights crowd actually continues the fight by actively pushing a law to permit “Partial-Birth abortions” (as opposed to said procedure falling under the general permission of abortions), even better. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/52 "2007-04-19T14:22:11Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Diogenes: It’s all about politics these days, winning the hearts and minds. The more unreasonable the anti-abortion-rights crowd can make the pro-abortion-rights crowd seem, the more people they win to their cause. If they can make the pro-abortion-rights crowd cry loudly in favor of a procedure that the majority of Americans recoil from to a greater degree than they do for ordinary abortions, score one for them. It wasn’t so much about the babies (although no doubt true pro-lifers will be happy if any of the babies are saved by this procedure being banned), but about the fight, about making their opponents advocate a distasteful position. And if the pro-abortion-rights crowd actually continues the fight by actively pushing a law to permit “Partial-Birth abortions” (as opposed to said procedure falling under the general permission of abortions), even better. [/QUOTE] And to hell with the women who are harmed or killed by having to undergo an unnecessarily less safe procedure? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/53 "2007-04-19T15:12:22Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > And to hell with the women who are harmed or killed by having to undergo an unnecessarily less safe procedure? Considering that the anti-abortion-rights crowd considers aborting the fetus at all to be murder, I imagine that they’d applaud anything that encourages the mother toward a live birth - if the slightly more dangerous (is it really?) alternative to PBA would have that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/54 "2007-04-19T15:23:56Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Diogenes: Considering that the anti-abortion-rights crowd considers aborting the fetus at all to be murder, I imagine that they’d applaud anything that encourages the mother toward a live birth - if the slightly more dangerous (is it really?) alternative to PBA would have that effect. [/QUOTE] It won’t have that effect and yes, it’s really more dangerous, not _dramatically_ more dangerous but the chances of complications and injury are ncreased. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/55 "2007-04-19T15:27:35Z")
Diogenes: > [@](#): > > It won’t have that effect It may not, true, but from the anti-abortion-rights crowd perspective, increasing the safety to the pregnant woman of an abortion procedure, which they feel is murder, is hardly a priority when live birth remains an option. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/56 "2007-04-19T15:32:31Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] It won’t have that effect and yes, it’s really more dangerous, not _dramatically_ more dangerous but the chances of complications and injury are ncreased. [/QUOTE] You’re not looking at it from the right angle (no pun intended) - if the woman then \*chooses \* to proceed with a more dangerous method, it’s her fault. I guess. Or something. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/57 "2007-04-19T16:36:40Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Considering that the anti-abortion-rights crowd considers aborting the fetus at all to be murder, I imagine that they’d applaud anything that encourages the mother toward a live birth - if the slightly more dangerous (is it really?) alternative to PBA would have that effect. [/QUOTE] Remember, we’re mostly talking about the same people who think that trying to vaccinate against HPV is a bad thing, and that when it comes to sex, people should be kept as ignorant as possible rather than well informed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/58 "2007-04-19T16:58:07Z")
[QUOTE=cmkeller] Diogenes: Considering that the anti-abortion-rights crowd considers aborting the fetus at all to be murder, I imagine that they’d applaud anything that encourages the mother toward a live birth - if the slightly more dangerous (is it really?) alternative to PBA would have that effect. [/QUOTE] I favor access to safe, legal abortions for women, but I find that statement to be as obnoxious as anything coming out of the wing-nut fringes of the anti-abortion crowd. Is it that hard to understand that many, many people on the other side of the debate hold principle views even if a few are nut-cases? Try not to paint with such a broad brush if you actually want to debate the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/59 "2007-04-19T17:20:02Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I favor access to safe, legal abortions for women, but I find that statement to be as obnoxious as anything coming out of the wing-nut fringes of the anti-abortion crowd. Is it that hard to understand that many, many people on the other side of the debate hold principle views even if a few are nut-cases? Try not to paint with such a broad brush if you actually want to debate the issue. [/QUOTE] Is Chaim’s quote the one you meant to reply to? I don’t see anything obnoxious about it. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670/60 "2007-04-19T17:32:12Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] ArchiveGuy got it. Regardless of the net effect this decision, by itself, will produce, it changes the playing field. Abortions are no longer the unfettered, inviolable choices they were the moment before the decision. This is absolutely a blow to those who believe that abortions should always be completely up to the mother, no restrictions, none whatsoever, a political stance held by many in the pro-choice camp. It’s that simple. It makes the restriction of abortions seem more reasonable, more palatable. Those who cry that any restriction is a horrible injustice, the creation of an awful, evil circumstance, will be seen as crying wolf by many, since this change won’t seem to produce that effect. So the next time someone suggests a reasonable restriction, the cries of outrage will seem just a bit less credible (to many). And so on, and so on, as additional restrictions are suggested. It’s a great first step, in that sense. Seems obvious to me. [/QUOTE] [Here](http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=12252)’s another article calling the ruling a Trojan Horse for anti-abortion crusaders: > [@](#): > > While one woman forced to endure a greater risk to her health for an utterly silly law is too many, one might reasonably ask – given that the case will not be used to overturn Roe – how much it actually matters whether Stenberg is affirmed. Here’s the answer: Any of the legal rationales for upholding the law contain doctrinal time bombs that could seriously undermine reproductive rights in future cases. > > If the Court overturns the health exemption, this will deal a body blow to Casey, giving states hostile to abortion much more leeway to legally harass doctors and patients in ways likely to have a chilling effect on abortion providers. (Remember that D&X abortions are not limited to post-viability abortions.) If the Court gives a free pass to legislatures that make bogus medical claims to evade the health exemption requirement, as the drafters of Federal Partial-Birth Abortion Act did, this will have the same effect with an extra layer of dishonesty added on top. (It will also send a signal to legislatures that the Court will not scrutinize the motives and consequences of abortion regulations with any seriousness, further diluting the “undue burden” restriction.) If, alternatively, the Court upholds the law pending “as applied” challenges, this will make challenges to abortion laws much more difficult and expensive, exacerbating the class inequities already present in abortion access. > > And irrespective of the precise rationale the Court ends up citing, the larger problem is that, because the distinction between D&X abortions and any other procedure is wholly arbitrary, legislatures can invent further distinctions and continue to tie the hands of abortion doctors. As Eve Gartner, the lawyer representing Planned Parenthood, put it during the oral argument, “to allow such an expansion of pre-viability abortions that can be banned would set the stage for continued legislative efforts to ban other iterations of the classic D&E method of abortion, until truly there would be nothing left at all of Casey’s holding that it is unconstitutional to ban second-trimester abortions.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-ban-what-does-it-accomplish-for-pro-lifers/400670.md?page=4)