# Partial Birth Abortion & Late Term Abortion -- should they be prohibited? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725 "2003-01-15T13:42:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/1 "2003-01-15T13:42:49Z")
Partial birth abortions [appear to be increasing](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030114-75792581.htm), according to the Guttmacher Institute. Congress is moving to address the issue on a national basis. Should PBA or late term abortions be prohibited? I vote NO on prohibiting partial birth abortion. Once we agree that’s it OK to kill a fetus, I don’t care what method is used. I vote NO on prohibiting 3rd trimester abortions, although there are certainly good arguments for saving a viable fetus. One could argue that 6 months is enough time for a pregnant woman to make up her mind. Still, I support continuing to use the act of birth to define the beginning of humanity, because it seems so natural. ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/2 "2003-01-15T14:21:34Z")
I have to agree with you and say “NO” also but for diffrent reasons. Basicaly unless you are the one who is pregnant I dont think you should have any say in if an abortion is done or not. All of these “Pro-life” people out there realy make me laugh. They will kill abortion doctors and prevent women from going into clinics, but you never hear about them going into orphanages and adopting some of the unwanted children. I want them to explain to me why an abortion is worse than if a woman has a child she doesnt want and then puts it up for adoption. Childeren raised by the state comeout fucked up and if they arent adopted by the time they are 18 they are thrown away a second time. The state considers them an adult so they cant stay in the group home any more. A life where you you know every second of the day that you werent wanted isnt much of a life at all. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/3 "2003-01-15T14:34:53Z")
I’m pro-choice but **BURNER** there are a few generalised statements in that post of yours. I’d watch the use of “All” if I were you. Some pro-life(what an annoying term BTW) people may get quite offended by it 😉 > [@](#): > > **All** of these “Pro-life” people out there realy make me laugh. They will kill abortion doctors and prevent women from going into clinics… > > A life where you you know every second of the day that you werent wanted isnt much of a life at all. bolding mine So you think that all people not adopted should have been aborted? 😕 As to the OP while I’m not from the US and abortion is currently illegal in Ireland (we just export the problem to the UK) I’d vote: No / No I’m under no illusion as to what a abortion and still I say it’s up to the parent/s to decide. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/4 "2003-01-15T14:37:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BURNER \* > “Pro-life” people out there… will kill abortion doctors and prevent women from going into clinics… This is unfairly slurring half of Americans based on the actions a very small number. > [@](#): > > … but you never hear about them going into orphanages and adopting some of the unwanted children. Consider, for example, the very conservative House Majority Leader [Tom DeLay](http://www.worldmag.com/world/issue/01-11-03/closing_2.asp). > [@](#): > > DeLay and his wife, Christine, have taken three troubled teenage foster children into their Houston home." Mr. DeLay has been active in working for neglected and abused kids in the District of Columbia. Mrs. DeLay is heading an effort to establish a residential facility in Fort Bend County, southwest of Houston, for kids who otherwise would be bounced around from foster home to foster home. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/5 "2003-01-15T14:41:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BURNER \* > \*\*All of these “Pro-life” people out there realy make me laugh. They will kill abortion doctors and prevent women from going into clinics, but you never hear about them going into orphanages and adopting some of the unwanted children. \*\* **All** of these [“Environmental”](http://www.earthliberationfront.com/) people out there really make me laugh. They will burn down buildings…endanger the lives of lumberjacks… **All** of these [“vegetarian”](http://www.peta.org) people out there really make me laugh…running idiotic ad campaigns, encouraging the consumption of beer instead of milk… **All** of these [“feminist”](http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/) people out there really make me laugh…with their man hating, idiotic view of sexuality… It’s a **damn** shame that [no](http://www.birthright.org/services.html) pro life group will step up and provide legitimate alternatives and help for the mom and child. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/6 "2003-01-15T14:49:36Z")
Yojimbo 1. Why does the term “pro-life” annoy you? 2. Does the term “pro-choice” annoy you as well? If not, why not? If so, why? 3. Do you prefer the terms “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion” or something else? And why? ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/7 "2003-01-15T15:08:33Z")
> [@](#): > > ## Consider, for example, the very conservative House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. quote: > > DeLay and his wife, Christine, have taken three troubled teenage foster children into their Houston home." Mr. DeLay has been active in working for neglected and abused kids in the District of Columbia. Mrs. DeLay is heading an effort to establish a residential facility in Fort Bend County, southwest of Houston, for kids who otherwise would be bounced around from foster home to foster home. Adopting 3 children is a good start. Now if all of the other pro-lifers would follow the example then there wouldnt be anymore unwanted children. If ,as you say, they are “half of Americans” they all might just have to take 1 child to make foster care and group homes a thing of the past. Too bad most of them would rather protest that adopt. > [@](#): > > It’s a damn shame that no pro life group will step up and provide legitimate alternatives and help for the mom and child. Let me say it again, if you arent the one carrying the baby then you should mind your own buisness. No one has the right to tell another person what to do with their own bodie. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/8 "2003-01-15T15:34:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BURNER \* > \*\*Adopting 3 children is a good start. Now if all of the other pro-lifers would follow the example then there wouldnt be anymore unwanted children. If ,as you say, they are “half of Americans” they all might just have to take 1 child to make foster care and group homes a thing of the past. Too bad most of them would rather protest that adopt. > > Let me say it again, if you arent the one carrying the baby then you should mind your own buisness. No one has the right to tell another person what to do with their own bodie. \*\* Wow. Burner makes the claim that **all** pro lifers espouse violence. A claim disproved and refuted by several dopers…does he/she retract it… Nope. He claims that no pro lifer will “adopt the unwanted children”, a claim that I disprove. Does he/she retract it? Nope. Huh. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/9 "2003-01-15T15:43:42Z")
**December** , you are well-known as a conservative around here, but your position on abortion calls into question the meaning of the term “conservative” since in the eyes of a lot of people, opposing abortion is the first word in conservatism. As for PBA, I would be willing to accept a ban if that could be the basis for a compromise that would end the this bitter, divsive dispute over abortion. The anti-abortion movement really, really wants this ban, but what are they willing to give up in exchange for it? They make a great deal out of the “gruesome” appearance of the procedure, and emphasize the idea that the fetus is in the process of “being born” during it. But no such considerations are present when the issue is stem-cell research or the morning-after pill, but pro-lifers oppose these too. So are they willing to accept a compromise and agree to stop attacking abortion rights overall, or would agreeing to this ban amount to appeasement? > [@](#): > > 1. Do you prefer the terms “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion” or something else? And why? I prefer the terms “anti-abortion” and “abortion rights”. You can’t get any clearer than “anti-abortion” while “pro-life” is flightily euphamistic and glassy-eyed and unspecific. Environmentalists could be called pro-life. “Pro-abortion” is unacceptable because there is a difference between supporting the legality of abortion and actually favoring that women get them. “Pro-choice” is euphamistic too, but emphasizing choice is important since the anti-abortionoids would very much like to portray the siuation as one where the evil society is forcing innocent young girls to kill their babies. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/10 "2003-01-15T15:45:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*Partial birth abortions [appear to be increasing](http://www.washtimes.com/national/20030114-75792581.htm), according to the Guttmacher Institute. Congress is moving to address the issue on a national basis. Should PBA or late term abortions be prohibited? > > I vote NO on prohibiting partial birth abortion. Once we agree that’s it OK to kill a fetus, I don’t care what method is used. > > I vote NO on prohibiting 3rd trimester abortions, although there are certainly good arguments for saving a viable fetus. One could argue that 6 months is enough time for a pregnant woman to make up her mind. Still, I support continuing to use the act of birth to define the beginning of humanity, because it seems so natural. \*\* Oh, so you think it’s okay to kill a full term baby in the normal prosess of being born with just the head still in the birth canal by stabbing it in the back of the neck and sucking the brains out. You call this a fetus!? Just because all of a sudden mommy decides she doesn’t want it. What part of “Thou shalt not kill” don’t you understand? How any doctor who would perform this legalized murder could sleep at night is beyond my comprehension! ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/11 "2003-01-15T15:53:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > Yojimbo > > 1. Why does the term “pro-life” annoy you? > > 2. Does the term “pro-choice” annoy you as well? If not, why not? If so, why? > > 3. Do you prefer the terms “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion” or something else? And why? pro-life annoys me because if I’m not in that camp does it mean that I am not pro-life? I think that the parent/s should have the right to decide their future and the future of their child. Pro-abortion would annoy me as well because while I may not agree with aborting a child of mine I/society have no business IMO making that decision for anyone else. Pro-choice does not equal pro-abortion IMO. I’m not going to come up with alternatives as it’s a minefield and it could easily hijack this thread too much. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/12 "2003-01-15T16:02:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\*pro-life annoys me because if I’m not in that camp does it mean that I am not pro-life? > \*\* It refers, in this context, to a narrow use of the term “life”…that you would not support protecting the life of a fetus. (FWIW, I subscribe to a [seamless garment/consistent ethic](http://www.seamless-garment.org/about.html) approach to this issue, so “pro life” has another dimension for me ) Much as the term “pro choice” does not refer to **all** instances of choice in life, only "reproductive choice. **Both** terms are narrowly defined terms…some folks only choose to see the narrowness of one term. ---
**Author:** ![0rbytal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/0/65b543/32.png) [@0rbytal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/0rbytal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/13 "2003-01-15T16:14:21Z")
I must share this to hopefully make _some_ of you reconsider your convictions: I use to consider myself a very, very strong pro-life advocate and even held to the conviction of “even if a woman is raped, she can still put the child up for adoption. At least the would get the _chance_ to experience life.” However one day while I was brushing my teeth\*, a thought crossed my mind: What if my wife were raped? Would I change my stance for this one scenario? That seems hypocritical. But surely I wouldn’t want to raise a child that is not mine… the rapist could have some hereditary traits to make the child prone to violence (no cites, just an example for argument’s sake). After that thought, I realized that if that happened, I would support my wife on whatever she decided to do. So I guess I am pro-choice. Why don’t _some_ of you (no-exception-pro-lifers) answer that question as well? What would _you_ want to happen if your wife / mother / sister were raped (and impregnated)? Would you shun her for choosing an abortion? (directed to males) (females–\>) What would you do if you were raped (& impregnated)? What if the rape were by a family member? [sub]\*as the song goes: “The important things in life are apt to blindside you on some idle Tuesday…”—The sunscreen song[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/14 "2003-01-15T16:15:58Z")
99% of the partial birth abortions aren’t done on the basis of “Mommy has decided she doesn’t want it”. They are done due to a medical condition of the fetus or when the mother’s life is at risk. If they outlaw that 1 percent I’m fine with it. If the pro-lifers are willing to take in horificly deformed children, as well as ALL of the expenses and emotional pain (that might be a bit tougher) then I’m willing to give up that bit as well. Where the life of the mother is at stake, I have no qualms with a PBA. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/15 "2003-01-15T16:19:24Z")
I agree **beagledave** pro reproductive choice would be better. While I understand that I’m looking at it from a one sided perspective but it still annoys me. I’ve had several people on hearing that I was pro choice accuse me of wanting to kill babies they then proceeded to get so far up the ass of the pro life lobby that they could see the Popes feet 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/16 "2003-01-15T16:21:55Z")
Who remembers Kang and Kodos’ presidential election speech … Kodos: No abortions for anyone ! Crowd: BOOOOOO ! Kodos: Um … okay … abortions for everyone ! Crowd: BOOOOOO ! ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/17 "2003-01-15T16:27:56Z")
Abortions for SOME Tiny American flags for the others! YAY! ---
**Author:** ![blanx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f04885/32.png) [@blanx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blanx)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/18 "2003-01-15T16:29:49Z")
Don’t blame me, I voted for Kodos. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/19 "2003-01-15T16:36:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NurseCarmen \* > \*\*99% of the partial birth abortions aren’t done on the basis of “Mommy has decided she doesn’t want it”. They are done due to a medical condition of the fetus or when the mother’s life is at risk. \*\* Well. [No.](http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/pba/pbafact10.html) > [@](#): > > In 1993, the American Medical News-- the official newspaper of the AMA-- conducted a tape-recorded interview with Dr. Haskell concerning this specific abortion method, in which he said: > And I’ll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective in that 20-24 week range. . . . In my particular case, probably 20% [of this procedure] are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are purely elective. > [@](#): > > The late Dr. James McMahon performed thousands of partial-birth abortions, including the third-trimester abortions performed on the five women who appeared with President Clinton at his April 10 veto ceremony. Dr. McMahon’s general approach is illustrated by this illuminating statement in the July 5, 1993 edition of American Medical News: > “[A]fter 20 weeks where it frankly is a child to me, I really agonize over it because the potential is so imminently there. I think, ‘Gee, it’s too bad that this child couldn’t be adopted.’ On the other hand, I have another position, which I think is superior in the hierarchy of questions, and that is: ‘Who owns the child?’ It’s got to be the mother.’” > In June, 1995, Dr. McMahon submitted to Congress a detailed breakdown of a “series” of over 2,000 of these abortions that he had performed. He classified only 9% (175 cases) as involving “maternal [health] indications,” of which the most common was “depression.” > [@](#): > > Of Dr. McMahon’s series, another 1,183 cases (about 56%) were for “fetal flaws,” but these included a great many non-lethal disorders, such as cleft palate and Down Syndrome. In an op ed piece written for the Los Angeles Times, Dr. Katherine Dowling, a family physician at the University of Southern California School of Medicine, examined Dr. McMahon’s report on this “fetal flaws” group. She wrote: > Twenty-four were done for cystic hydroma (a benign lymphatic mass, usually treatable in a child of normal intelligence). Nine were done for cleft lip-palate syndrome (a friend of mine, mother of five, and a colleague who is a pulmonary specialist were born with this problem). Other reasons included cystic fibrosis (my daughter went through high school with a classmate with cystic fibrosis) and duodenal atresia (surgically correctable, but many children with this problem are moderately mentally retarded). Guess they can’t enjoy life, can they? In fact, most of the partial-birth abortions in that [McMahon] survey were done for problems that were either surgically correctable or would result in some degree of neurologic or mental impairment, but would not harm the mother. Or they were done for reasons that were pretty skimpy: depression, chicken pox, diabetes, vomiting. [“What Constitutes A Quality Life?,” Los Angeles Times, Aug. 28, 1996] ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725/20 "2003-01-15T16:58:48Z")
I’d prefer a cite that isn’t from the National right to life website. I think we can all agree that the information they put out is rather skewed. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-late-term-abortion-should-they-be-prohibited/148725.md?page=2)