# "Partial-Birth Abortion": morally the same as any other abortion method **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2008, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357 "2008-11-18T21:17:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/81 "2008-11-27T17:00:06Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > My take on it as I understand the scriptures is that life does start at conception (Ps 139:13,15), where the unborn is knit together in the womb AND formed in the secret places underground. God often used being inside a being as equivalent as to being underground (Jonah 2:6). > > My own take on it is we are formed underground with the pull of the love of the mother in the body that God is knitting together, that love draws us more and more into that body. > > 3 common terms I believe indicate parts of human life are IMHO very descriptive of the following: > Conception = the beginning of human life - this is the only term that I know of in human life that indicates a begining. > Quickening (rarely used anymore) = soul is entirely inside the new being, the body is developed enough at this point. > Delivery= human birthright is granted, this makes the person capable as being perceived as fully human, part of the human family. You can see the effect of loss of a birthright in Gen 33 where Esau just wants to greet his brother, longing to be included as part of the family, but due to his selling his birthright Issac was unable to treat him as a member of humanity. > > Since the unborn can’t be fully perceived as human till birth it is sort of between murder and negligent homicide. As for what stage of pregnancy, I personally think there is some difference between if it happens before or after the quickening, though there is no scientific test to find out when this happens. From a theological point of view it seems obvious nobody knows when the soul enters the body. I remember reading some article in which the author argued that the soul enters the body with the first breath and used some passage of scripture to support his argument. Arguing different interpretations of ancient books seems a little arbitrary to me. The end result is the same. We just don’t know. It seems to me that while we should honor life , even potential life, we should also honor the individuals right to choose. Isn’t that also something God established among mankind? Another theological question might be, is it possible to frustrate God’s will? Is it possible to prevent a soul from coming to the mortal realm once God has deemed it? If a particular birth is prevented from happening why can’t that soul be born in another body? After all, we were known before we were in the womb right? If we’re going to make arbitrary guesses about theology then let’s try to make more positive ones. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/82 "2008-11-27T21:34:55Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Another theological question might be, is it possible to frustrate God’s will? By definition, I would think not. That’s the problem with God - his boosters want him to be all-powerful, but also to call people evil for thwarting him. Make up your minds. Either he’s all things, or just this guy, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/83 "2008-11-28T06:45:26Z")
> [@WF\_Tomba](#): > > The course of fetal development, therefore, transforms a biological entity that is not a human being into a human being. I do not think the status “human being” should depend on where the entity in question is located with respect to the mother. This seems a trivial matter compared with the physical form of the entity itself. Except to the woman with the fetus in her, this isn’t a trivial matter. You certainly have the right to decide when you think a fetus becomes a human, but you don’t have the right to expect or force all women to agree with you. Women who have decided, as I have, that it isn’t a human until it is physically separated from the mother should have the right to abort whenever they wish. If nothing else, if there was actually a woman out there that decided at 8 1/2 months that she just didn’t feel like having a baby after all, do you really want her to be forced to have it and keep it? Those folks that don’t like the idea of late term abortion can sign up to raise any fetus that lives after c-section or induction at whatever time the mother wants it, including all of those that were aborted due to a problem that means it will die shortly after birth. At your own expense. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/84 "2008-11-28T07:08:08Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Your comment above seeks to invoke outrage over beating an unwanted child to death after birth while supporting cutting it to pieces during the birth process. There is no moral difference. I am willing to recognize the internal consistency of supporting late-term abortions together with a position in support of euthanizing unwanted or defective children. However you cannot maintain logical consistency by arguing for killing late-term fetuses and then standing in opposition to harsh treatment of babies. Sure you can. For one thing, depending on when the procedure is done, the late-term fetus may or may not have a completely developed nervous system so it may not feel pain as a born human would. And for all I know, since I have never had a late term abortion, the fetus may be anesthetized prior to the procedure and feel nothing at all. It also isn’t self aware. Now contrast that to a baby or young child that is abused and/or beaten to death. Do you really think that euthanizing a fetus is the same thing as abusing a child? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2008, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/85 "2008-11-28T11:48:04Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] From a theological point of view it seems obvious nobody knows when the soul enters the body. I remember reading some article in which the author argued that the soul enters the body with the first breath and used some passage of scripture to support his argument. [/QUOTE] Breath is important for some aspects of human life (Ezk 37:4-14), as well as birthrights (Gen 33 shows that loss of a birthright is much more then loss of inheritance, but loss of the ability to be perceived as a member of the human family. - aborted/unborn people don’t get birthrights as they are never born, we simply can not perceive them as fully human. > [@](#): > > It seems to me that while we should honor life , even potential life, we should also honor the individuals right to choose. Isn’t that also something God established among mankind? God allows mankind choice, including children sacrifices, and mankind has reaped the consequences of those choices, over and over again. > [@](#): > > Another theological question might be, is it possible to frustrate God’s will? > [@](#): > > Proverbs 21:30 > There is no wisdom, no insight, no plan that can succeed against the LORD. > [@](#): > > Is it possible to prevent a soul from coming to the mortal realm once God has deemed it? If God has ‘deeded’ it, it can not be undone by man. > [@](#): > > If a particular birth is prevented from happening why can’t that soul be born in another body? I believe it can IF that soul was not fully in that body and still underground (Ps 139:13,15) Have to get to the rest later ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/86 "2008-11-29T00:49:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Breath is important for some aspects of human life (Ezk 37:4-14), as well as birthrights (Gen 33 shows that loss of a birthright is much more then loss of inheritance, but loss of the ability to be perceived as a member of the human family. - aborted/unborn people don’t get birthrights as they are never born, we simply can not perceive them as fully human. Obviously some people do consider do consider them fully human which is why they fight to protect their rights. Are you saying we shouldn’t consider them fully human? Do the unborn past the point of viability deserve a different consideration than within the first few weeks? > [@](#): > > God allows mankind choice, including children sacrifices, and mankind has reaped the consequences of those choices, over and over again. Are you saying you know what those consequences are, specifically? I’m not sure how you mean to relate this to the thread. > [@](#): > > I believe it can IF that soul was not fully in that body and still underground (Ps 139:13,15) And we don’t know when the soul enters the physical body right? In fact for all we know the soul might be born into another body. Early Christians taught reincarnation just as other religions teach it now. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/87 "2008-11-29T01:37:37Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > And we don’t know when the soul enters the physical body right? We don’t know _ **if** _ a soul enters the physical body. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/88 "2008-11-29T04:40:27Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > We don’t know _ **if** _ a soul enters the physical body. Nor do we have a reason to care. A mindless lump of tissue with a soul is still just a lump of tissue. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/89 "2008-11-29T13:27:59Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > We don’t know _ **if** _ a soul enters the physical body. I was speaking theologically, not making scientific statements. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/90 "2008-11-29T17:22:33Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Except to the woman with the fetus in her, this isn’t a trivial matter. You certainly have the right to decide when you think a fetus becomes a human, but you don’t have the right to expect or force all women to agree with you. Women who have decided, as I have, that it isn’t a human until it is physically separated from the mother should have the right to abort whenever they wish. What if a woman decides that it doesn’t become human until two years of age? Or three? Or thirteen? For that matter, what about people who believed that blacks weren’t fully human? Should we object if they were to declare, “You have no right to decide this matter for me”? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/91 "2008-11-29T17:37:50Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > What if a woman decides that it doesn’t become human until two years of age? Or three? Or thirteen? > > For that matter, what about people who believed that blacks weren’t fully human? Should we object if they were to declare, “You have no right to decide this matter for me”? The fact that you find it necessary to equate people with functioning, aware brains with mindless fetuses shows how anti-abortionism degrades humanity. It requires you to accept a definition of “person” that insults actual people and degrades the term. Your analogy fails because real, thinking, feeling people are not the same as a mindless thing that you declare a person just because your theology demands it. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/92 "2008-11-29T18:08:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The fact that you find it necessary to equate people with functioning, aware brains with mindless fetuses shows how anti-abortionism degrades humanity. It requires you to accept a definition of “person” that insults actual people and degrades the term. > > Your analogy fails because real, thinking, feeling people are not the same as a mindless thing that you declare a person just because your theology demands it. I didn’t get that equating out of **JThunder** s post. Did I miss some a post or do you think a fetus is mindless from conception to birth? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2008, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/93 "2008-11-29T23:50:12Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > What if a woman decides that it doesn’t become human until two years of age? Or three? Or thirteen? > > For that matter, what about people who believed that blacks weren’t fully human? Should we object if they were to declare, “You have no right to decide this matter for me”? As soon as you have a thirteen year old black person growing inside of you, let me know and we’ll worry about those things. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/94 "2008-11-30T02:34:50Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > As soon as you have a thirteen year old black person growing inside of you, let me know and we’ll worry about those things. **Jthunder** actually made a point that you failed to address with this sarcasm. That’s your choice but it isn’t a debate. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/95 "2008-11-30T02:56:23Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > **Jthunder** actually made a point that you failed to address with this sarcasm. > > That’s your choice but it isn’t a debate. What point was that? He/she was comparing separate beings with something that could be viewed as a parasite, even if it may eventually become a separate being. Looks like a strawman to me. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/96 "2008-11-30T03:26:13Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > What if a woman decides that it doesn’t become human until two years of age? Or three? Or thirteen? At two, or three, or 13 you have one or two or 12 years of willingly accepted responsibility for care. If a parent becomes unwilling (or unable) to care for a child after doing so for some period of time, they could not justify killing the child as a means to end their responsibilities because, as noted, they have the option to transfer care to someone else. > [@JThunder](#): > > For that matter, what about people who believed that blacks weren’t fully human? Should we object if they were to declare, “You have no right to decide this matter for me”? Provided they aren’t trying to act on their beliefs in such a way that suppresses the liberty and free will of any other person, they can have whatever damn fool notions they want. And if someone is asserting their liberty and free will from within a culture of suppression, we should help them to gain the freedom they seek. Even assuming we agreed some person was little more than property, you could expect objection to maltreatment or cruelty. Have you considered an argument from an Animal Liberation angle? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/97 "2008-11-30T10:36:20Z")
> [@1010011010](#): > > At two, or three, or 13 you have one or two or 12 years of willingly accepted responsibility for care. > > If a parent becomes unwilling (or unable) to care for a child after doing so for some period of time, they could not justify killing the child as a means to end their responsibilities because, as noted, they have the option to transfer care to someone else. So a viable child, abortion would be wrong? You may have already addressed this–long thread. > [@](#): > > Provided they aren’t trying to act on their beliefs in such a way that suppresses the liberty and free will of any other person, they can have whatever damn fool notions they want. It is absolutely an issue of individual rights, and which takes priority. I agree with that aspect. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/98 "2008-11-30T14:20:09Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > What point was that? He/she was comparing separate beings with something that could be viewed as a parasite, even if it may eventually become a separate being. Looks like a strawman to me. But it’s not. Your post indicated that women should have the right to decide to abort from conception to birth and nobody else should have any say. **JT** gave you examples of how people don’t always get the right to personally choose what seems just and moral to them in a society they share with others. It’s a fact that at some point that little parasite can viably live as a human infant outside the body even before it’s been born. That’s the legal question. Does a fetus, once it has reached a stage of development where he or she would survive outside the mother, have any rights as a person and deserve legal protection? You may have decided that the fetus/child isn’t human until it’s physically separated from the mother but much of society disagrees with you and society gets to create the laws, your personal decision notwithstanding. So, the point was, just because \*you \* don’t consider a late term fetus a human doesn’t really give you the right to do as you will , anymore than the other examples **JT** gave. ---
**Author:** ![1010011010](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/ea666f/32.png) [@1010011010](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/1010011010)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/99 "2008-11-30T19:48:50Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > So a viable child, abortion would be wrong? You may have already addressed this–long thread. In terms of a unwanted pregnancy, the only practical options for woman are to remain pregnant against her will, or to terminate the pregnancy. “Viability” does not change anything. After the moment of birth, when the fetus has been separated from the mother, transfer of care becomes readily available as an option. At that point, homicide becomes considerably harder to justify as a preferred option for an unwilling parent. Regarding **JThunder** (and **cosmodan** ): There has been a very patient ongoing discussion about the significant differences between a person and a fetus. **JThunder** ’s addition to that discussion is, essentially, “What if the person is black?” The question is nonsensical. We could do some mental contortions to try to pretend it’s appropriate to the discussion at hand, but allow me to refactor that mode of thought and present a similar (counter)argument: You have no more right to enslave a black woman against her will than a fetus has a right to enslave a black woman against her will. If a fetus chooses to abuse it’s rights in such a manner, death is an appropriate punishment. :dubious: It’s a ridiculous distraction. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357/100 "2008-12-01T01:30:22Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > But it’s not. Your post indicated that women should have the right to decide to abort from conception to birth and nobody else should have any say. **JT** gave you examples of how people don’t always get the right to personally choose what seems just and moral to them in a society they share with others. It’s a fact that at some point that little parasite can viably live as a human infant outside the body even before it’s been born. That’s the legal question. Does a fetus, once it has reached a stage of development where he or she would survive outside the mother, have any rights as a person and deserve legal protection? As I also said in that post, if for whatever reason a woman decides she needs to have an abortion past the point when the fetus might be viable outside her body, if you feel so strongly that she shouldn’t be allowed to do that, then you should sign up to pay all expenses and then adopt it when it can leave the hospital. Whether or not it is expected to live more than a couple of days, whether or not it will be profoundly disabled. If you want to give that parasite legal rights as a person, then you also need to step up to the plate and pay for it. It’s really easy to sit there and say that a fetus is a human and noone should be allowed to abort it, until you yourself actually have to deal with the outcome of that belief. > [@](#): > > You may have decided that the fetus/child isn’t human until it’s physically separated from the mother but much of society disagrees with you and society gets to create the laws, your personal decision notwithstanding. > > So, the point was, just because \*you \* don’t consider a late term fetus a human doesn’t really give you the right to do as you will , anymore than the other examples **JT** gave. I have no idea what the laws are these days nor do I know what “much of society” thinks, but from the OP in this thread it sounds like woman can still abort a late term fetus. Even if she can’t it is still in no way the same thing as going about killing real live actual humans just because they are black or Jewish. The thread is about morals. There is no overwhelming majority opinion on when a fetus becomes a human, nor is there one with regards to whether or not a woman should be able to abort at any time if the fetus is profoundly retarded. There is however a vast majority opinion that it is immoral to kill an actual human just because he happens to be black or Jewish or whatever. Your moral decision is apparently that a fetus is human long before it is naturally born, but that is _your_ opinion. My opinion is that no matter what law might be in effect, you have no right to force women to become slaves to biology. I am also of the opinion that your average adult woman has more rights than a process of nature. As for the majority getting to pass the laws, well the masses are asses (see Prop 8). We have plenty of laws that I consider to be immoral, but that doesn’t invalidate my morals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partial-birth-abortion-morally-the-same-as-any-other-abortion-method/473357.md?page=6)