awfully decent of you.
Change newborn to someone stricken with late stage Alzhiemers or ** severly mentally retarded** or ** long term coma patient** and would you feel the same way?
The difference is the baby at least has hope for a normal life.
Your leaving the abortion issue open to subjective criteria.
I`d rather it be left to fact - either your pregnant or your not.
My point of protection is not random at all. Legal abortion is important for a variety of reasons, mostly having to do with a woman’s right to control her body. I think it’s quite ghastly that the government could take over my body when I have commited no crime, except perhaps the misfortune to end up with sperm in my body.
But there isn’t a good reason to kill anything after birth. Just because I don’t think it’d be intrinsically immoral doesn’t mean I think it should be okay. Everything born ought to be kept alive. Severly incapacitated people still have memories, have had the ability to comprehend the world in the past and know what this “life” thing, and have had the will to live. Fetuses have none of this. They have as less memory, sentience and understanding of the world as my cat, who I can have terminated at any time (although I’d never do that unless he somehow managed to get in my stomach and start sucking my blood and nutrients).
This thread has gotten off-course. It’s not supposed to be about abortion in general, but about “partial birth abortion” in particular–the OP’s assertion that doctors who perform this procedure are “evil.”
I am interested to know what people think about preserving the right to PBA for pregnant women find out later in their pregnancy that their fetus is deformed or damaged in some way. Some of these defects cannot be discovered until late in the pregnancy. I believe these women absolutely, definetly have the right to abort their damaged fetuses. How would someone who is against abortion or PBA in particular justify taking this right away from women? Why would you want to force these women to go through with bringing a defective human into the world? That is unethical.
I agree with Diogenes. I don’t know why people inject such emotion and drama into what is a private medical matter. I mean, abortion takes place all the time, what harm is it doing to the world? How does this affect anyone but the woman making this choice? And can someone explain to me exactly what is so “evil” about PBA? I mean, why is this so shocking to everyone? In a normal abortion, the entire fetus is vacuumed out. Why is PBA so much more shocking? What is really the difference? And what the hell business is it of yours anway?? Geez this gets me so mad!
It just strikes me as so ironic that these “pro-lifers” spend so much energy worrying about aborting fetuses when most people go through life being mean to each other. Why don’t these people put their energy toward feeding, housing and clothing the humans that already do exist, and being good to their already-existing fellow human beings?
…because we tend to believe that “already existing fellow humans” include the unborn, especially the late term.
"Why don’t these people put their energy toward feeding, housing and clothing the humans that already do exist, and being good to their already-existing fellow human beings?"
…we like to do that too.
"And can someone explain to me exactly what is so “evil” about PBA? I mean, why is this so shocking to everyone? In a normal abortion, the entire fetus is vacuumed out. "
I challenge you to watch one if you think they are so innocent.
You would forever be changed, especially if you have children of your own, or were once a baby yourself.
While we’re at it, let’s show potential mothers-to-be a c-section up close, and throw in a video of all the ways a birth can go horribly wrong. Y’know, if we make people watch graphic videos of whatever operation they are scheduled to go through, I bet we could get a whole bunch of people to cancel their operations and run home in terror. Is that how you think people should make such decisions?
I have indeed seen the images and videos (courtesy of the anti-choice propagandists) and I didn’t think much of it. I have seen film of all kinds of surgery, and of course there were some blood and guts, but that doesn’t bother me at all. PBA seems no different to me. Anyway, after seeing the images, I still would have absolutely no qualms about having a PBA if I *needed to. * People are just putting way too much emotion into it.
I mean, hey, when you have your period, and a bloody blob that was your egg comes out, do you get all upset over it because it had the potential for human life? Do you know how often embryos are spontaneously aborted naturally, and you’d never even know you were pregnant?
It`s obvious to me that unless you have the slightest impression that a pre-born baby is precious, you will continue to be steadfast in your beliefs.
From this short article, please read and comment.
"The absence of the means of consciousness in the womb, as at any stage of life, does not mean the person is not present, any more than being mentally deficient, asleep or in a coma means that “Betty” or “Bill” or whomever has ceased to be human person. The continuity of human personhood is the same as the continuity of human life, otherwise, we are reduced to the illogic that it depends on the human will when personhood begins - the mother accepts it, or the state accepts it, or it is conscious of itself, or some other subjective criteria."
Czarcasm --* "While we’re at it, let’s show potential mothers-to-be a c-section up close, and throw in a video of all the ways a birth can go horribly wrong. "*
The above are probably better reasons for abstinence if anything.
I read the article. Leaving aside the religious and philosophical aspects of an article written for a religious site, we are to understand that the fetus is IN CHARGE, because it releases a chemical that stops menstruation. Using this “logic”, any part of a human body that causes another part of the human body to change is IN CHARGE, and is therefore a human being.
whuckfistle, couldn’t you have found a better article to support your view, one that wasn’t from the “Eternal World Television Network, Global Catholic Network?” The writer’s arguments were pretty weak and based on emotion and religious beliefs, not rational ones.
The article states:
Oh, I see, so a blob of cells is IN CHARGE of mother from the time of conception? Oh that totally changes my view! Why didn’t anyone tell me this before? What a great argument!
Ok sarcasm aside, I would disagree that a zygote or fetus is “a biologically distinct human individual…present from the moment of conception.” How can this be? A blob of cells no larger then a period at the end of a sentence is a “distinct human individual?” It cannot move, think, feel–heck it doesn’t even look like a human. The moment it left a woman’s body it would cease to exist. Hmmm, so I guess that means the fetus isn’t in charge after all!! Looks like it’s the woman who is in charge!
And I guess that is the point here. Who is “in charge?” How do we weigh the “rights” of the two entities involved? Why should a blob of cells have more “rights” than a woman? And why do you care so much if a woman does not want to reproduce? How does it affect you, other than making you sad? (Which is no reason to impose your beliefs on others.)
Now of course I do concede that once a fetus reaches a certain stage of development–viability outside the womb, a fully formed body that can function outside the womb–in the last weeks of pregnancy, that it has achieved a higher status.
Now, whuckfistle, can you explain to me why you think an unviable fetus is “precious?” Of course the term is subjective, so I would be interested in hearing an explanation free of religious or emotional ideas. Can’t you concede that an early unviable zygote or fetus is a lot different from a viable fetus in the late stages of pregnancy? Can you concede that there are gradations of status as the fetus grows?
I would like to agree with you, I really would. I just cant draw the line between viability and non-viable. I dont think anyone of us can make that distinction, right down the line, for every fetus that develops. Should we be making the decision based on each individual pregnancy? Or can we scientifically determine that 99.9% of all fetuses are viable after x amount of days in the womb? We can`t even determine exactly how long a woman has been pregnant, how far along the baby is (to the day), or if at what point the fetus is viable. How can you draw the line at viability when each fetus is different in that aspect?
I, at least, have a specifically scientific line drawn. You either test positive or you dont. Graduations of embryonic status dont mean a thing to me, although I understand the concept, I don`t agree that it should be a consideration.
On why the “blob” is precious; (without emotion and religious overtones)
First of all, you miss-read the letter. It says "The conceptus is certainly* NO** blob of the mother’s tissue. In fact IT IS IN CHARGE, releasing a chemical from its cells "*
The reason the egg and the sperm unite is for one purpose only. To create a human. Each and every uniting will produce a unique and precious human life, barring some natural intervention. Common sense leads me to believe that if left alone, the embryo will become a human being. If aborted it wont, in essence killing that human that would have become of the embryo.
This is all just logic and common sense to me. Every action, or lack thereof, produces a reaction. In this case, a pregnancy leads to a human life and the abortion, in essence, kills it.
Instead of fussing about the need to terminate “unwanted” babies, this society should be addressing the “prevention” of said pregnancies.
Adressing PBAs; (which is what the OP is exploring) I dont see how any sane person can defend these on a case by case basis, especially without some serious medical evidence to back up the claim. Even you should be disgusted with such procedures, seeing as how the baby is surely viable at this point.
In an effort to escape from the issue of “Mothers Rights”;
How would you feel if an artificial womb were developed?
A couple could walk in to the office, supply the needed biological items and produce a baby without the mom ever carrying the fetus.
Now, what if they changed their mind three weeks later, and decided to abort the procedure. How would those who claim that the rights of the mother trump the babies rights react to this?
I disagree. Every united sperm and egg will create the potential for human life. Many or most fertilized eggs never even implant on the uterine wall. These zygotes don’t even have the potential for human life. I think you are going too fast from step 1 (egg and sperm unite) to the final step: birth of an live and viable baby. There are many steps in between. The formation of the brain, the nervous system, the heart, the lungs, so on and so forth. As each thing happens, the fetus inches a step closer to achieving life. Until the fetus has a full set of working organs, it is simply not viable. It needs to be remained attached to its host in order to continue to develop. This seems pretty clear-cut to me–seems like a pretty “specific line” as you put it.
I disagree again. If aborted, it eliminates that potential human being. You can’t kill a human who doesn’t exist yet. (Unless you are the Terminator and you go back in time.)
Again, many pregnancies do not lead to human life. Many abort spontaneously.
On why the “blob” is NOT precious: I think most people are overcome with emotion on this issue. Even though your explanation was prefaced with being without emotional overtones, it still seemed very driven by emotion to me. People think babies are cute. The smaller, the cuter. They see images of tiny human-shaped embryos and think “awww how cute, how precious.” Then the thought that this thing would be removed at the request of its host shocks them. They don’t even think of the woman’s wishes, only of this “precious” little embryo.
*Precious: Of high cost or worth; valuable. Highly esteemed; cherished. Dear; beloved. Characterized by feeling or showing fond affection for. *
Now whuckfistle, why are other people’s embryos so “precious” to you? Why are they so highly valuable, cherished, beloved to you? Why do you feel this way about perfect strangers’ embryos? Why do you put these embryo’s interests above that of a woman who is a thinking person with free will, able to make decisions? Women who are perfect strangers to you, no less.
If an embryo presents a danger to the woman’s health, or if the embryo is severely damaged, or the potential baby would cause the woman hardship, or if she just plain doesn’t want to proceed with a pregnany for nine months, I don’t see how you can define it as “precious.” It’s really none of your business. If it’s precious to the woman who is carrying it, that is great. But if not, why would you presume to stand in her way and put the embryo’s interests before hers?
By the way, a question, just out of curiosity: are you male or female?
Ya know, this really is a true human rights/free will issue. You know, I never asked to be born, never was given a choice, and certainly did not request to be female. But I’m here now. It’s pretty inconvenient to have these body parts that grow these things. Birth control fails, and isn’t always easy to use. Sometimes I ask myself, why has this burden been placed on me, as a woman? Why must I be forced to go through this grueling physical experience that I never asked for, just because you don’t like the thought of abortion? It’s just really none of your business.
I just don’t get it.
First off; I specifically added the term “barring some natural intervention”, which includes any of the failures you described.
And
It sure as hell is my business.
I, along with the rest of society, have the right (the moral obligation) to uphold the morality of the society in which I live.
The majority have the ability to mold the mores of the society in which they live. We do this as a society all the time. Abortion, murder, theft, rape, child porn, deviant sexual practices, etc. Anything that falls on the line (or goes over) as to what we will accept is in the hands of the majority (or in some cases, the most disruptive).
Right now, abortion is pretty well split 50/50. So, yes, we that are against this procedure do feel that it is within our rights to prevent it.
Your freedoms are extended to you by the rest of society. Society has the ability to withdraw/modify/add to those at any time.
Thems are the cold hard facts.
nyctea scandiaca–
“Now whuckfistle, why are other people’s embryos so “precious” to you? Why are they so highly valuable, cherished, beloved to you? Why do you feel this way about perfect strangers’ embryos? Why do you put these embryo’s interests above that of a woman who is a thinking person with free will, able to make decisions? Women who are perfect strangers to you, no less.”
Change embryo to children above, and you`ll see how I view those ideas. Should I not care about other children in my society? Other people? Or other peoples possessions?
P.S. Check my profile.
So, whuckfistle, I take it you’re opposed to ending ectopic pregnancies? After all, if a woman cannot have a PBA to save her life because that would involve the taking of an innocent life, why should she be able to have an ectopic pregnancy removed? After all, the life of the fetus takes precedence.
CJ
I recently read that there have been a grand total of two ectopic babies recorded as having been been carried to term and born (though I’m more inclined to think these “ectopic” babies found themselves in the abdominal cavity, not the falopian tube), and they both died shortly after birth. I suspect that whuckfistle wouldn’t consider removing a baby that is absolutely going to die to take precedence over the mother who would most likely (though not always) survive if the doomed baby was aborted.
Because in the case of an ectopic pregnancy, the death of the fetus is a foregone conclusion.
There is simply no comparison between a PBA and an ectopic pregnancy. It is far better to let the woman live than to let both of them die – hence the rationale behind ending an ectopic pregnancy.
I think I stated in one of the above posts that “serious medical evidence” would have to be present to rationalize the procedure.
Seige, the life of the fetus doesn`t take precedence over the life of the mothers’. It takes precedence over some of her rights, but not her own life. In the case of life threatening situations each would be determined on a case by case basis with the best outcome for both parties considered. Just like seperating Siamese twins.
I think I stated in one of the above posts that “serious medical evidence” would have to be present to rationalize the procedure.
Seige, the life of the fetus doesn`t take precedence over the life of the mothers’. It takes precedence over some of her rights, but not her own life. In the case of life threatening situations each would be determined on a case by case basis with the best outcome for both parties considered. Similar to seperating Siamese twins.
Note the change from “just like” to “Similar”. Thanks.
Seems to me that if the “conceptus” is in charge then any abortion constitutes suicide.