# Partitioning Ukraine ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758 "2014-03-03T16:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/21 "2014-03-03T20:05:12Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Whatever the reasons, the reality is that the majority of the people in the Crimea is Russian or would favor to be part of Russia. Do you have a cite for what percentage of the people in Crimea want to be part of Russia? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/22 "2014-03-03T20:06:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Whatever the reasons, the reality is that the majority of the people in the Crimea is Russian or would favor to be part of Russia. We know this how? If they want to be part of Russia, then establish some sort of internationally-monitored plebisite. A Russian invasion is not justified. > [@](#): > > I make no illusions, I’m talking that before we get any ideas that intervention would be a good thing, a concerted effort should be made to control whatever token extreme right wingers are there. I would think that if we approach this by also taking into account the concerns of the Crimea that we can then apply pressure from a higher moral ground. Perhaps before we start talking about the need to “control” people, we should provide some sort of proof that it is necessary. Right now, this type of talk is just a leaf from Russia’s propaganda-book. Indeed, there are lots of posts on this very site that describe Ukranians as a bunch of fascists, and it is extremely disturbing. Do some people out there really believe this to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/23 "2014-03-03T20:08:39Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I said **interests,** not rights. We are talking about international relations, after all. Russia has interests in the Crimea, the U.S. has not. What’s the difference between “rights” and “interests”, to you? Are you saying that having “interests” justifies invasions, or not? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/24 "2014-03-03T20:20:40Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > We know this how? > > If they want to be part of Russia, then establish some sort of internationally-monitored plebisite. > > A Russian invasion is not justified. Did not say that it was justified. > [@Malthus](#): > > Perhaps before we start talking about the need to “control” people, we should provide some sort of proof that it is necessary. Right now, this type of talk is just a leaf from Russia’s propaganda-book. And I did not say it was not also, the point is that even a fig leaf of an effort would do a lot to tell Russia to bug off. > [@Malthus](#): > > Indeed, there are lots of posts on this very site that describe Ukranians as a bunch of fascists, and it is extremely disturbing. Do some people out there really believe this to be true? I’m on the record of agreeing that almost no one is paying attention to the fascists in Ukraine. I’m only talking about how to counteract the Russian propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/25 "2014-03-03T20:28:52Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Did not say that it was justified. > And I did not say it was not also, the point is that even a fig leaf of an effort would do a lot to tell Russia to bug off. > I’m on the record of agreeing that almost no one is paying attention to the fascists in Ukraine. I’m only talking about how to counteract the Russian propaganda. It would not matter in the slightest. You cannot contradict the “big lie” technique by acting as if it may perhaps be true, and addressing a “problem” that does not really exist. All you do is encourage the liars. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/26 "2014-03-03T20:30:14Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What’s the difference between “rights” and “interests”, to you? > > Are you saying that having “interests” justifies invasions, or not? I’m saying that interests **explain** invasions and, where applicable, move the situation out of simple “Hey, you can’t do that!” territory, because this is a situation where the intervening party is bound to be under considerable domestic pressure to intervene, and needs to be given a better reason than that not to. If none such can be given, then we have what is described by a phrase which at once enrages and soothes every diplomat: A _fait accompli._ ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/27 "2014-03-03T20:34:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’m saying that interests **explain** invasions and, where applicable, move the situation out of simple “Hey, you can’t do that!” territory, because this is a situation where the intervening party is bound to be under considerable domestic pressure to intervene, and needs to be given a better reason than that not to. There is no need to avoid “simple” reactions to unjustified invasions such as this - it is “simply” a matter of greed and opportunity. Sometimes, rather than “simple”, a better word to use is “clarity”. I for one see no evidence whatsoever that Putin was in effect forced into invading by domestic pressure. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2014, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/28 "2014-03-03T20:37:17Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It would not matter in the slightest. > > You cannot contradict the “big lie” technique by acting as if it may perhaps be true, and addressing a “problem” that does not really exist. All you do is encourage the liars. What you miss is that I’m working under the context of an intervention, with no intervention or threat of it then yeah, I also say to the makers of the big lie to go to pound sand. ---
**Author:** ![Marmite\_Lover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Marmite\_Lover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marmite_Lover)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/29 "2014-03-06T11:53:37Z")
If Putin is smart and he sure seems to be compared to the rest of the characters we are hearing from, then, he should take Crimea and join it to the Russian Federation, build a huge concrete wall along the border, and leave the rest as Ukraine with it’s right wing Fascists groups and Muslim Tatar Jihadists who can them apply to become members of the EU. I hear the Muslim tatar jihadists have lovely sweet voices so they might have a good chance of winning the Eurovision Song Contest for Ukraine 😃 Maybe the Muslim Brotherhood can open a HQ in Kiev like London too. Lot’s of nice things ahead for Western Ukraine… Putin will probably also add Kharkiv region if they also have a referendum once the Crimeans vote and are then under Putins protection away from the EU loving fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/30 "2014-03-06T12:10:03Z")
simply ‘taking’ or ‘seizing’ Crimea and any other provinces of the Ukraine that lean toward Russia will have the effect of creating a completely pro-Western remainder of the Ukraine. Putin may believe he can control that tendency with fuel supply arrangement and restrictions, but the West is good at finding ways to deal with such matters. The West can give the West-leaning ‘new’ Ukraine far more support that they might have the ‘old’ Ukraine, half Russian, half ‘Ukrainian’ (I don’t think the basic differences between the people of Russia and Ukraine amount to anything worth talking about – ethnically, religiously, culturally. the western portion of the Ukraine does appear to be poised to become more exemplar of Western Europe in its political arrangements than Russia’s more centralized methods. Anyway, there will be talks and negotiations and pressures and debates and charges and reallignments, but at the end of the day, not that much will change in that area unless the Ukraine is actually split in two. That, to me, would seem to be the preferred long term solution to intractable points of view between Russian speaking and Ukrainian speaking Ukrainians. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/31 "2014-03-06T13:13:46Z")
If any old country has a free pass to annex their neighbor, it’s going to be a boom year for map makers and arms dealers. I can’t figure out why so many people are like “yeah, Putin has a point.” In less we are just looking for good excuses why the West shouldn’t get involved. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/32 "2014-03-06T13:17:24Z")
So the Crimean Parliament has voted to let its residents vote on whether to remain in Ukraine or join Russia. So if they do so and the election is fair, then is there a valid complaint? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/33 "2014-03-06T13:20:30Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > So the Crimean Parliament has voted to let its residents vote on whether to remain in Ukraine or join Russia. So if they do so and the election is fair, then is there a valid complaint? Under Russian guns, can there be a “fair election”? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/34 "2014-03-06T13:22:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Under Russian guns, can there be a “fair election”? If there are UN observers and if the voting machines are distributed more fairly than they are in Ohio, perhaps there could be. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/35 "2014-03-06T13:28:33Z")
So if a large number of your citizens have settled in an area, it’s OK to annex it? Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/36 "2014-03-06T13:31:45Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So if a large number of your citizens have settled in an area, it’s OK to annex it? > > Duly noted. Lol ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/37 "2014-03-06T13:41:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Perhaps before we start talking about the need to “control” people, we should provide some sort of proof that it is necessary. Right now, this type of talk is just a leaf from Russia’s propaganda-book. I certainly read about the major part played in the Ukrainian revolt by the extreme-right right from the begining in regular French papers, so it’s not just Russian propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/38 "2014-03-06T13:48:44Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > I can’t figure out why so many people are like “yeah, Putin has a point.” In less we are just looking for good excuses why the West shouldn’t get involved. I think there are places (namely, Syria) where the West would have much better reasons to intervene. If a children torturing, women raping, civilian gazing dictatorship doesn’t warrant an intervention, I’m not sure why a peaceful secession of Crimea approved by the majority of the local population following an uprising of dubious legitimacy would. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/39 "2014-03-06T14:19:16Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I certainly read about the major part played in the Ukrainian revolt by the extreme-right right from the begining in regular French papers, so it’s not just Russian propaganda. There is a sizable participation of the extreme right in French politics, not to mention more actual anti-minority ‘incidents’ in France. Does that justify, in your opinion, an invasion of France? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/40 "2014-03-06T14:22:52Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I think there are places (namely, Syria) where the West would have much better reasons to intervene. If a children torturing, women raping, civilian gazing dictatorship doesn’t warrant an intervention, I’m not sure why a peaceful secession of Crimea approved by the majority of the local population following an uprising of dubious legitimacy would. Because allowing Russia to invade and annex places in Europe on bullshit pretexts sets a rather bad precident, and makes all of Russia’s neighbours understandably nervous? The notion that any plebisite on Crimea in the next ten days can be fair in any way is an absurdity - or have you not read that the Russians (excuse me, ‘pro-Russian milita that just happen to be using Russian equipment’) ran the UN observer out of the country the other day? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758.md?page=3)