# Partitioning Ukraine ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758 "2014-03-03T16:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/61 "2014-03-07T23:00:35Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I never knew that the mere presence of “strong right wing” parties having influence meant invasion was justified, in case they _might_ start - what, pogroms? Massacres? Ethnic cleansing? Forcibly overthrowing a democratically elected government should be enough. The west should be intervening to return legitimate government to Ukraine, not siding with fascists. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/62 "2014-03-08T13:42:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Forcibly overthrowing a democratically elected government should be enough. The west should be intervening to return legitimate government to Ukraine, not siding with fascists. Democracy isn’t simply a ritual of voting that automatically confers legitimacy, as many appear to believe. What confers legitimacy is the authentic choice of the people of their government, which voting is the best way to determine. However, a democratically-elected leader can in fact _lose_ legitimacy, even when he’s been properly elected - for example, when he ruthlessly flouts the law to steal the country’s wealth for himself, starts to undermine the constitution to make himself a dictator, and sells his country out to the Russians - reaching a new low when he calls on a foreign country to _invade his country_ to re-instate him! Such a person can, and should, be overthrown. The right of government belongs to the _people_, not to the _leader_. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/63 "2014-03-08T14:27:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Forcibly overthrowing a democratically elected government should be enough. The west should be intervening to return legitimate government to Ukraine, not siding with fascists. I held a similarly mistaken view, until recently. However, [Ukraine is not being run by fascists.](http://theweek.com/article/index/257646/no-ukraine-is-not-being-run-by-fascists) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/64 "2014-03-08T15:07:54Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I held a similarly mistaken view, until recently. However, [Ukraine is not being run by fascists.](http://theweek.com/article/index/257646/no-ukraine-is-not-being-run-by-fascists) The democratically elected government has been overthrown by far-right extremists, and the quibble is about whether “fascist” is strictly correct from a political science point of view? In a sane world, the West would be working _with_ Russia to sort out the issues in Ukraine, restore the legitimate government there, and allow self determination for the Crimea. Instead, we are supporting the far right, despicably. Of course Russia’s not perfect, and I’ve been quite vocal in my condemnation of them recently, specifically the gay rights issues. Maybe not on here, I’m not big on “me too” posting, but I’m hardly a blind supporter of Putin. But it’s clear that he’s the lesser of two evils in this case. Or three evils, if you consider the legitimate Ukranian government evil for its treatment of protesters. Of the three groups - the usurpers, the Ukrainian government, and the Russians, the latter are by far the least violent and the most clearly supporting the will of the people. The west are supporting a far-right minority, something that should never be acceptable. Fuck it, supporting a far-right _majority_ shouldn’t be acceptable! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/65 "2014-03-08T15:16:30Z")
I’m no longer convinced that Ukraine is being run by ‘far-right extremists’. While Svoboda and Praviy Sektor are recognized as right wing groups with a distinctly fascist roots, they stood side by side in the Maidan with the unfortunately named Fatherland and UDAR groups, which are distinctly left leaning. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/66 "2014-03-08T17:08:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The democratically elected government has been overthrown by far-right extremists Can you support this claim with actual evidence? Don’t just say the word “fascist” over and over; can you explain, please, how the current governing party, which has never been considered a “fascist” party before, suddenly is now? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/67 "2014-03-08T17:27:13Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Can you support this claim with actual evidence? Don’t just say the word “fascist” over and over; can you explain, please, how the current governing party, which has never been considered a “fascist” party before, suddenly is now? How many times do you need to see cites for the far right parties organising the protests and forcing the president to flee the country? Seriously? That’s not how legitimate government operates. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/68 "2014-03-08T17:32:08Z")
No one is arguing that right wing activities are not taking place. We’re just questioning the alleged preponderance of their influence on events compared with the moderate and left activities of the Ukrainian gov’t as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/69 "2014-03-10T12:30:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yeah . . . Hey, Canada! We got us some unfinished biz from the War of 1812! Don’t fight it! Resistance is futile! And **impolite!** > > And as for **you,** Mexico, heh-heh-heh, we’re gonna— we’re gonna . . . eerrrmm . . . well, we could, but that would mean . . . look, just try to keep it quiet down there, wouldja?! of course, we already did annex part of Mexico (called it a negotiated settlement to the Mexican war, didn’t we? and, negotiated the Canadian border. Our relationships with those countries have since been, at least, cordial. Missing from this thread is a comparison between Crimea and Scotland, or Wales. I’ve been advised that Scotland is now home to a significant population of Englishmen…can the Scots have a true Independence Election with so many British troops about? ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/70 "2014-03-10T12:37:24Z")
> [@crucible](#): > > Can the Scots have a true Independence Election with so many British troops about? Scots are British. You mean English. ---
**Author:** ![crucible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@crucible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crucible)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/71 "2014-03-11T12:20:14Z")
> [@terentii](#): > > Scots are British. You mean English. I know, but they are British troops, not English troops. I haven’t the least knowledge whether Scots tend to serve in Scotland, etc., but if the military tattoo’s are any indication, there must be Scot regiments, under the control of the Brits, who so far this century, have not been stupid enough to banish the bagpipe, ban the kilt, or put someone named ‘Butcher Cumbrland’ in charge. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/72 "2014-03-11T14:08:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Forcibly overthrowing a democratically elected government should be enough. The west should be intervening to return legitimate government to Ukraine, not siding with fascists. AIUI, there are fascists on **both** sides here. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/73 "2014-03-13T09:09:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Can you support this claim with actual evidence? Don’t just say the word “fascist” over and over; can you explain, please, how the current governing party, which has never been considered a “fascist” party before, suddenly is now? Let’s see here. [Oleksander Sych](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Sych), a Svoboda member who opposes abortion even in the case of rape, is now the vice prime minister. [Andriy Mokhnyk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Mokhnyk), also a Svoboda member, who [pals around with Italian neo-fascist party Forza Nuova](http://en.svoboda.org.ua/news/events/00001771/), is now the Minister of Ecology and Natural Resources of Ukraine. Ihor Shvayka, also a Svoboda member, is now the Minister Of Agrarian Policy And Food. And Oleh Maknitskyy, also a Svoboda member, is now the country’s state attorney. Whether the Svoboda party is “fascist” or not depends, I s’ppose, on one’s definition - but I don’t see how there can be any doubt that the party is, at the very least, virulently xenophobic, and has a rich history of anti-Semitic bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/74 "2014-03-13T10:05:52Z")
**Steken** , there are extreme right-wingers in positions of power all throughout Europe. That’s nothing new. What you’ll have to do is convince us that, as **Steophan** originally claimed, fascists were the ones who OVERTHREW Yanukovych and are now RUNNING the government. There’s a big difference between running a government and holding a couple of positions of power ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/75 "2014-03-13T12:37:23Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > **Steken** , there are extreme right-wingers in positions of power all throughout Europe. No, there aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Batistuta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58956e/32.png) [@Batistuta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Batistuta)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/76 "2014-03-13T12:55:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, there aren’t. Not everywhere at the national level, but look at some Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, British or Belgian local governments and you’ll find them. Not to mention the fact that they get millions of votes in France, hundreds of thousands in Greece and Hungary. That doesn’t mean that any of these countries is controlled by fascists, and needless to say it doesn’t legitimise a Russian intervention either. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/77 "2014-03-13T13:28:40Z")
> [@Batistuta](#): > > Not everywhere at the national level, but look at some Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, British or Belgian local governments and you’ll find them. Not to mention the fact that they get millions of votes in France, hundreds of thousands in Greece and Hungary. That doesn’t mean that any of these countries is controlled by fascists, and needless to say it doesn’t legitimise a Russian intervention either. You have a different view of “position of power” to me, then. I’d say a cabinet minister is much different to a local government official (although it’s still pretty bad that we have extremist there), and whilst I’m not hugely bothered by BNP councillors here, I’d be terrified if they got into national government. And I’m a white male Tory voter… I can only imagine how much worse someone who was actually a target of them would feel - for example, people of foreign ethnicity who have seen attempts to ban their language. I’d fully understand the desire for secession. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/78 "2014-03-13T13:41:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You have a different view of “position of power” to me, then. I’d say a cabinet minister is much different to a local government official (although it’s still pretty bad that we have extremist there), and whilst I’m not hugely bothered by BNP councillors here, I’d be terrified if they got into national government. And I’m a white male Tory voter… I can only imagine how much worse someone who was actually a target of them would feel - for example, people of foreign ethnicity who have seen attempts to ban their language. I’d fully understand the desire for secession. Seems you are more moved by the apparently non-existent threat to ethnic Russians (what attempts to ‘ban their language’ are you talking about?), than the real and actual fears of the Tatar minority in Crimea, who have suffered “ethnic cleansing” in the past and are currently worried about more of the same. > **[Crimean Tatars](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars#After_Ukrainian_independence)** > > Crimean Tatars (Crimean Tatar: qırımtatarlar, къырымтатарлар) or Crimeans (Crimean Tatar: qırımlılar, къырымлылар) are an East European Turkic ethnic group and nation indigenous to Crimea. The formation and ethnogenesis of Crimean Tatars lasted over 2500 years in Crimea and the Northern Black Sea region, uniting Mediterranean populations with those of the Eurasian Steppe. > Crimean Tatars constituted the majority of Crimea's population from the time of ethnogenesis until the mid-19th century, an... ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/79 "2014-03-13T14:03:25Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seems you are more moved by the apparently non-existent threat to ethnic Russians (what attempts to ‘ban their language’ are you talking about?), than the real and actual fears of the Tatar minority in Crimea, who have suffered “ethnic cleansing” in the past and are currently worried about more of the same. > > [Crimean Tatars - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars#After_Ukrainian_independence) [This attempt.](http://rt.com/news/ukraine-language-lavrov-asselborn-627/) There’s real evidence of a threat to Ukrainian Russians, and whilst the fears of minorities in the Crimea are certainly justified, there’s nothing to suggest an imminent threat. It’s my opinion that the Russians are the lesser of two evils at the moment - something the actual President of Ukraine agrees with. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/80 "2014-03-13T14:19:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > [This attempt.](http://rt.com/news/ukraine-language-lavrov-asselborn-627/) There’s real evidence of a threat to Ukrainian Russians, and whilst the fears of minorities in the Crimea are certainly justified, there’s nothing to suggest an imminent threat. It’s my opinion that the Russians are the lesser of two evils at the moment - something the actual President of Ukraine agrees with. I thought you might be referencing that. You do realize that the bill (which was vetoed) had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with "attempts to ‘ban their language’ ", right? What it did, was attempt to repeal a law that allowed local authorities to declare any language an “official language” if the speakers of said language comprised more than 10% of the local population. Cite: [Language policy in Ukraine - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine) We here in Canada do not have such a law. Here, only French and English are “official languages”, despite the fact that (for example) in some places in the province of British Columbia local speakers of Chinese are more than 10 percent of the population, and in some places in Alberta speakers of Ukrainian are more than 10 percent of the population. Perhaps Canada should be invaded by the Chinese to redress this “threat”? How many other countries in the world have such a law? Does Russia? Why, no it doesn’t. Ukrainian is not an “official language” in Russia, despite the fact that some local communities have more than 10% Ukrainian speakers there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758.md?page=5)