# Partitioning Ukraine ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 3, 2014, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758 "2014-03-03T16:55:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/101 "2014-03-14T15:25:53Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > That article speaks about the uprising; it says precious little about parliament’s attempt to repeal the language law in question. It talks about the enormous propaganda effort by Russia to label Ukrainians “fascists”. Stuff that you’re swallowing line, hook and sinker. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/102 "2014-03-14T20:08:11Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Giving a minority’s language the status of official language isn’t the same as allowing that minority to take over the country, or parts of the country; and it certainly isn’t the same as allowing a foreign country to invade. These are separate issues. > > That Russia attacked Ukraine doesn’t mean it’s suddenly OK for Ukraine to lower the status of the country’s minorities. Giving seperate legal status to seperate regions based on percentage of minorities living there legitimizes the notion that they are seperate, and ought to be seperate, based on percentage of minorities living there. Once again, has nothing to do with “lowering the status” of minorities. Don’t you ever tire of those red herrings? > [@](#): > > Ultimately, Ukraine can either try to welcome its minorities into an open, multi-ethnic society, or it can tell them to fuck off. If they tell them to fuck off, they shouldn’t act all indignant when these minorities do, in fact, attempt to fuck off - in Crimea’s case, to go fuck off back to Russia. Canada is an open, multi-ethinic society - and Canada lacks such an absurd law.Lacking this law isn’t a signal that the society is not open and multi-ethnic. Except of course that has nothing to do with what is happening in Crimea - namely, an armed invasion. > [@](#): > > Where did I say anyone was getting threatened with being restricted in what languages they speak? You implied it here: "… but it’s usually something like "oh, today they want their religion/language/whatever accepted … " > [@](#): > > Right. I have no proof that Ukraine’s fascists are motivated by xenophobia, and you have no proof that Ukraine’s fascists are in fact simply trying to simplify the bureaucracy’s messy paperwork. > > Looking at Svoboda’s track record, though, which would you say is the more reasonable assumption? This is a textbook example of the fallacy of composition. > **[LogicallyFallacious.com - Webpages](https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/cgi-bin/uy/webpages.cgi?%2Findex.php%2Flogical-fallacies%2F87-fallacy-of-composition)** > [@](#): > > Logical Form: > > A is part of B > > A has property X > > Therefore, B has property X. In your case: Svoboda is part of the coallition governing Ukraine. Svoboda is “fascist”. Therefore, the government of Ukraine is “fascist” and measures approved by them are motivated by “fascism”. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/103 "2014-03-14T22:25:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It talks about the enormous propaganda effort by Russia to label Ukrainians “fascists”. Stuff that you’re swallowing line, hook and sinker. Are you saying there are no fascists in Ukraine? That Svoboda isn’t fascist? That the Right Sector isn’t fascist? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2014, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/104 "2014-03-14T23:10:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Giving seperate legal status to seperate regions based on percentage of minorities living there legitimizes the notion that they are seperate, and ought to be seperate, based on percentage of minorities living there. No, it legitimizes the notion that they are _different_, and that that is OK for them to be different. Trying to force the country’s minorities to “Ukrainise”, as Svoboda consistently does, isn’t what a free, democratic, multi-ethnic society should be doing. It is _bad_ when they try to force “Russian residents of Lviv to ‘Ukrainise’ the names of their children.” It is _bad_ when they question the Polish minority’s “right to erect monuments in honour of murdered Poles,” and picket Polish commemoration ceremonies in Ukraine, and even “interrupt the celebrations in honour of Poles murdered by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) in Huta Pieniacka.” Is it _bad_ when they insist that “the only official language of state structures (including the sphere of education) is to be Ukrainian, and the rights of national minorities are to be restricted to the creation of associations.” It is _bad_ when they consistently demean and humiliate the country’s minorities. And it is _bad_ that they recently attempted to repeal this excellent, excellent, excellent law, which hurt no one and did nothing but good. Now, I get that you hate Putin. I get that you hate Russia’s aggression. But to pretend that the attempt to repeal this law was fine and dandy because, hey, Canada doesn’t have such a law and you fellas are doing alright, is absurd. Svoboda doesn’t play nice. These people hate, hate, hate and fucking _kill_, as do their cheerleaders all over Europe. Hell, one Swedish Nazi just came back from a “tour of duty” on the streets of Kiev, and the first thing he did was to stab a feminist fella right in the guts over in Malmö, just across the water from where I live. For those of us swarthy types up here, this is fucking scary. It is fucking scary to us when, all throughout Europe, neo-fascists switch to suits and ties and become members of parliament. It is fucking scary to us when xenophobia comes back all over Europe; when minorities throughout the continent are blamed for society’s ills; and when our rights to speak our own languages and maintain our own cultures is questioned. And it is _really_ fucking scary to us when, in the case of Ukraine, people who really ought to know better turn a blind eye to all of this because, hey, fuck Putin amirite, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend. > [@Malthus](#): > > Lacking this law isn’t a signal that the society is not open and multi-ethnic. Where did I write that “lacking this law isn’t a signal that the society is not open and multi-ethnic”? I never wrote any such thing. I wrote that _in this case_, and _under these specific circumstances_, and _given Svoboda’s track record_, is it clear what parliament’s attempt to repeal this law was really all about. > [@Malthus](#): > > You implied it here: > > "… but it’s usually something like "oh, today they want their religion/language/whatever accepted … " No, that’s not what I implied at all. The opposite of “acceptance” isn’t “restriction.” > [@Malthus](#): > > This is a textbook example of the fallacy of composition. > > [LogicallyFallacious.com - Webpages](http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index.php/logical-fallacies/87-fallacy-of-composition) > > In your case: > > Svoboda is part of the coallition governing Ukraine. > > Svoboda is “fascist”. > > Therefore, the government of Ukraine is “fascist” and measures approved by them are motivated by “fascism”. Did I say that _all_ measures approved by the government of Ukraine is motivated by fascism? No. Just that _this one measure_, by Ukraine’s _parliament_ (and not its government, as you write) reeks of it. Also, when you put fascist within quotation marks, I just gotta ask - are you saying that Svoboda _isn’t_ fascist? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2014, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/105 "2014-03-16T04:12:16Z")
Here’s pretty good independent reporting from Crimea: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/V9Dk2emDU0o/hqdefault.jpg "Pro-Russia & Pro-Ukraine Protesters Face Off: Russian Roulette in Ukraine") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9Dk2emDU0o) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/106 "2014-05-11T22:06:02Z")
Pro-Russian insurgents in eastern Ukraine say preliminary results of a contentious referendum show nearly 90 percent of voters have supported sovereignty for their region (75% of eligible voters voted). [http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/05/11/4110733/2-ukraine-regions-set-to-vote.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/05/11/4110733/2-ukraine-regions-set-to-vote.html) So will they now form a separate country or will they join Russia–after the civil war with the rest of Ukraine? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/107 "2014-05-11T22:10:27Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > Pro-Russian insurgents in eastern Ukraine say preliminary results of a contentious referendum show nearly 90 percent of voters have supported sovereignty for their region (75% of eligible voters voted). > [http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/05/11/4110733/2-ukraine-regions-set-to-vote.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/05/11/4110733/2-ukraine-regions-set-to-vote.html) > > So will they now form a separate country or will they join Russia–after the civil war with the rest of Ukraine? Yup. And 99% of Syrians will vote for Assad, too. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/108 "2014-05-20T23:32:15Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And while in principal, Russia does not have the right to invade Crimea, I’m not sure I’m seeing much in the way of protest from Crimeans themselves at the prospect of becoming Russians again. Much like in South Ossetia, I feel like they are welcoming their Russian overlords. Though it’s hard to tell for sure what with the 11,000 unmarked “defense” troops in the area. An update for you on those 11,000 unmarked “defense” troops: > **[Chapter 1. Ukraine: Desire for Unity Amid Worries about Political...](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2014/05/08/chapter-1-ukraine-desire-for-unity-amid-worries-about-political-leadership-ethnic-conflict/)** > > Ukrainians widely agree that their country should remain a single, unified state. Only residents of Crimea are a clear exception, with overwhelming > [@](#): > > Crimeans are very satisfied with the leadership in Simferopol. Roughly eight-in-ten (83%) say Prime Minister Sergey Aksyonov is having a good influence on the way things are going in Crimea. Similarly, 82% give the government in Simferopol high marks. > > A majority of Crimeans (65%) also say the self-defense forces have had a positive impact on Crimea. Self-defense forces played a major role in the events leading up to the referendum vote in Crimea. On April 17, Russian President Putin said he had sent the Russian military into Crimea to support the self-defense forces prior to the election. You were spot on not seeing much in the way of protest among Crimeans. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/109 "2014-05-21T13:31:34Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > An update for you on those 11,000 unmarked “defense” troops: > > [Ukrainians Want Unity Amid Worries about Political Leadership and Ethnic Conflict](http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/chapter-1-ukraine-desire-for-unity-amid-worries-about-political-leadership-ethnic-conflict/) > > You were spot on not seeing much in the way of protest among Crimeans. I take it you agree with this source generally? > [@](#): > > A broad majority of Ukrainians say their country should remain a unified state (77%). Fewer than two-in-ten (14%) believe that regions that want to leave should be allowed to secede. … because its conclusions are that the East doesn’t want seperation or partition, by a large majority. ---
**Author:** ![NotfooledbyW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f475e1/32.png) [@NotfooledbyW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NotfooledbyW)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758/110 "2014-06-03T21:41:03Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I take it you agree with this source generally? > > … because its conclusions are that the East doesn’t want seperation or partition, by a large majority. No reason not to agree with those conclusions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partitioning-ukraine/682758.md?page=5)