# Party in Hell? McNamara Takes the Dirt Nap! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 6, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098 "2009-07-06T16:14:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/1 "2009-07-06T16:14:16Z")
I read today of the passing of Robert McNamara.a man responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans, and Vietnamese. A man of high intelligence (he was a genius level intellect), he had no sense of morality…to him, human life meant little. His pathetic memoirs, turned my stomach-he never acknowledged the evil that he did, nor did he ever admit his error. Hope there is a nice warm spot for him down there! ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/2 "2009-07-06T19:41:47Z")
Here’s a question. How do you think history would view him if he had been allowed to go ahead with Operation Starlight? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/3 "2009-07-06T20:18:00Z")
I think the OP’s take on him is a little harsh, I wish this was in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/4 "2009-07-06T20:27:31Z")
I can’t celebrate this. Regardless of his errors in judgment - and he made some whoppers - there’s no doubt in my mind that the man was a genuine patriot and a dedicated public servant. If you’ve never seen “The Fog of War”, it’s absolutely worth a look - fascinating extended interview between Errol Morris and McNamara. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/5 "2009-07-06T21:27:50Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > Here’s a question. How do you think history would view him if he had been allowed to go ahead with Operation Starlight? Operation Starlight went ahead. The attack killed about a third of the Viet Cong troops engaged in the battle and forced them out of the area around Chu Lai. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/6 "2009-07-06T21:31:54Z")
Yeah, I was confused why he said that also. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/7 "2009-07-06T21:57:14Z")
From [here](http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/07/robert-mcnamara-passes-away.html): > [@](#): > > He is best known for his dubious role in the Vietnam War and also, now, through the movie The Fog of War. But McNamara also had a huge influence on the economics profession, most of all through his 13-year presidency at the World Bank. He focused the Bank on poverty reduction, he brought Communist China into the Bank, he introduced the practice of five-year lending plans, he significantly increased the Bank’s budget, he grew staff from 1600 to 5700, he favored sector-specific research, he raised money from OPEC, he strongly encouraged “scientific project evaluation,” and he started a largely successful program to combat “river blindness”; the latter may have been his life’s achievement. The Bank as a large, modern technocracy – for better or worse – dates largely from his tenure. > > He probably shaped the Bank more than did any other single person. Here is one overview. The Bank, of course, continues to be a major employer of economists and a major influence on the theory and practice of development economics. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2009, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/8 "2009-07-06T22:36:49Z")
I stand corrected, then. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/9 "2009-07-07T00:50:09Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I read today of the passing of Robert McNamara.a man responsible for the deaths of thousands of Americans, and Vietnamese. A man of high intelligence (he was a genius level intellect), he had no sense of morality..to him, human life meant little. > His pathetic memoirs, turned my stomach-he never acknowledged the evil that he did, nor did he ever admit his error. > Hope there is a nice warm spot for him down there! You’d think such bold proclamations would at least warrant a thorough proof reading and punctuation. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/10 "2009-07-07T01:01:50Z")
If this isn’t sent to GD soon I’ll just start a new one there. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/11 "2009-07-07T04:08:29Z")
Moving thread from IMHO to The BBQ Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/12 "2009-07-07T04:12:56Z")
Can we give him credit for the stuff [he got right](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_5120.36), at least? ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2009, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/13 "2009-07-07T05:00:50Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > You’d think such bold proclamations would at least warrant a thorough proof reading and punctuation. Perhaps this explains why reading comprehension clearly isn’t the o.p.'s strongest suite. Or perhaps it’s just the fact that he’s one of the village idiots of the SMDb. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/14 "2009-07-14T12:33:30Z")
I’ll post as a response in this thread an excerpt of my post concerning McNamara that can be read in full [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11337361&postcount=13)] > [@Has anyone ever literally saved the world?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/has-anyone-ever-literally-saved-the-world/502950/13): > > … > (1): **Robert McNamara** : As Secretary of Defense, he was the individual who “was most responsible for solving the Cuban Missile Crisis”. He was the first to suggest a Naval blockade within Kennedy’s inner circle. Had he remained CEO or whatever for Ford, we very likely would \*\*not \*\*be here now. > > I think it’s deeply offensive for all those who are thrilled by McNamara’s recent death because of his deep and powerful influence in vigorously pushing the Vietnam War, but if saving the world doesn’t count _ **at least** _ as a mitigating factor against those charges, _ **what would?** _ Place the OP’s (and many others’) criticism of McNamara on the scales beside the fact that McNamara _ **literally saved the world** _, and if one decided that his sins and crimes outweigh saving the world from a nuclear holocaust, may I suggest one needs to consult with a mental health expert immediately… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/15 "2009-07-14T13:48:06Z")
The OP is the standard knee jerking type who see everything about Vietnam in terms of either black or white. McNamara was a really complex individual, who did really complex things. He’s definitely more a shades of gray kind of guy. Even if I believed in hell, I’d have to go with McNamara probably being in Purgatory somewhere, cooling his heels (so to speak) while various angelic and demonic lawyers argue the case for a few centuries… -XT ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/16 "2009-07-14T13:59:55Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Can we give him credit for the stuff [he got right](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_5120.36), at least? Somewhat undercut by his role in [Project 100,000](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1316/is_n6_v27/ai_17040672/), I think. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/17 "2009-07-14T14:53:52Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > Place the OP’s (and many others’) criticism of McNamara on the scales beside the fact that McNamara _ **literally saved the world** _, and if one decided that his sins and crimes outweigh saving the world from a nuclear holocaust, may I suggest one needs to consult with a mental health expert immediately… Uh… while I don’t hate McNamara, the blockade was what set off the Cuban Missile Crisis and resulted in a moronic, panicky Fidel begging the Ruskies to launch (the Russians thought better of it). I don’t think you can chalk this one up in the “win” column. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/18 "2009-07-14T16:21:13Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Uh… while I don’t hate McNamara, the blockade was what set off the Cuban Missile Crisis and resulted in a moronic, panicky Fidel begging the Ruskies to launch (the Russians thought better of it). I don’t think you can chalk this one up in the “win” column. You sure as fuck need to “brush up” on your American history! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/19 "2009-07-14T19:22:40Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > If you’ve never seen “The Fog of War”, it’s absolutely worth a look - fascinating extended interview between Errol Morris and McNamara. I don’t think the OP has seen it, since the most fascinating thing about it for me was how contrite he was about acknowledging the evil that he did, and admitting his errors. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098/20 "2009-07-14T21:06:21Z")
> [@Morbo](#): > > I don’t think the OP has seen it, since the most fascinating thing about it for me was how contrite he was about acknowledging the evil that he did, and admitting his errors. I saw the movie and read the book and liked both but I’m going to sort of…disagree with you there. The first sentence in the book explains this is a book he was never going to write because either it would sound like an apology or a blame shift and he wanted to do neither of those things. He wrote the book almost as a memoir/instruction manual and above all he wanted the world to know the US government was run by good people doing the best job they could. McNamara says it was the cynicism the public showed towards Bush and government in general that convinced him to try and restore some faith in our leaders. An act of contrition it wasn’t and he says several times in the movie he knows several instances where he screwed up but will never admit it to anybody. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-in-hell-mcnamara-takes-the-dirt-nap/502098.md?page=2)