# "Party of Death" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810 "2006-06-15T15:35:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/81 "2006-06-18T12:04:23Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Typically, it is conservative pro-life people who participate. It is a Catholic organization that I became involved in through my parish. Interestingly, I live in a very, very (VERY!) liberal community, and there are a lot of liberals in my parish. They would certainly be welcome to be involved, and we regularly request volunteers through the parish bulletin/newsletter, but it seems that this does not tend to be a pet project for them, as it is for us very pro-life folks. I certainly would not assume that no liberals participate in this type of program, but in my parish, at least, there are other types of organizations that they seem to be more passionate about. Certainly there is other work that also benefits but wouldn’t it be refreshing to see conservatives and liberals working together to benefit others? May I ask a few questions about the program? Where do women come from? Do they seek you out? Does your program advise people to definitely\* not \*have an abortion or simply offer support for mothers who wants their child but has concerns about their abilities and resources? Where does the funding come from? Does the program directly provide funds for those in need or connect them to other programs? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/82 "2006-06-18T12:34:58Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I’m glad you said this. The overall point I have been trying to make is that the term “unwanted” is not exactly black & white. There are many reasons a child may be unwanted, and having no feelings whatsoever for that child may very well be a minor factor. Women who are poor or otherwise have troubles in their lives are just as entitled to love & cherish their children as anyone else, and it is our duty to help these mothers and children. And even the children who are truly unwanted by their mothers have the right to be appreciated by the rest of society as being worthwhile human beings. All three of my children were unplanned as I was. They are all wonderful adults now making contributions to society. My oldest daughter is a struggling single Mom who opted not to have an abortion. It isn’t easy but she and my granddaughter are doing fine. My step daugter decided to have her unplanned child and gave it up for adoption. Her Mom and the adopting parents were all present at the delivery. They get photos and updates on a regular basis. It’s a beautiful thing IMHO. The mother of my youngest daughter and I discussed abortion at the time and she decided she couldn’t and I honored her choice. Our daughter just graduated college and a real joy and a tremendous talent. All that being said , as **scotandrsn** pointed out, there are plenty of children who are in need right now. I admire your work. I think what pro choice folks object to are those who want to make that choice illegal while not doing enough to care for the children who come into the world. Personally I object to the terms. I consider myself pro choice and pro life. That’s why the book, “Party of Death” is inflammatory and insulting just as liberals insinuating that all conservatives are hypocrites would be. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/83 "2006-06-18T12:50:16Z")
Folks- I started this thread to discuss the fellow’s book. I appreciate all the comments on it, and I may buy it when I get back to the US. I did not mean to start an abortion debate. It is not amiable to discussion, each of us must make a personal decision. While you are certainly free to talk about this, I wanted to apologize for stirring up emotions. That was certainly not my intent. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/84 "2006-06-18T12:57:20Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > I would wager that the majority of women who have an abortion consider it self-defense. Why isn’t that acceptable? If it is self-defense in the sense that she will die or have a serious risk of dying, then it is acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/85 "2006-06-18T13:03:02Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > If it is self-defense in the sense that she will die or have a serious risk of dying, then it is acceptable. But, with all due respect, we’re not talking about whether or not it’s acceptable to you. We’re talking about what would make pregnant women prefer not to keep their pregnancy, and this is a legitimate opinion in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/86 "2006-06-18T13:07:50Z")
[QUOTE=scotandrsn] > [@](#): > > PLease. At least some of the unadopted non-babies became such because they were unadopted babies. The shortage is not with the adoptees, but with the adoptors. Knowledge of an increase in babies available might increase the number of adoptions, but the reports I linked to suggest not much. Certainly not enough should you be wrong about how many of the 850,000 that would be on hand if there were no legal access to abortion. I wouldn’t argue with this. I actually feel that adoption gets a bum rap in our culture. Many birth mothers, as you point out, think it’s emotionally easier (and it is certainly physically easier) to get an abortion than have a baby and give it away. Many people who want babies spend tens of thousands of dollars on fertility treatments so that they can have their “own” babies. Many, many of the news stories you hear about adoption are negative…children in the foster system with terrible social problems that people don’t feel equipped to handle, babies born with all kinds of health problems, children taken away from their adoptive parents on bizarre technicalities, some years after the adoption was finalized. It’s not good. > [@](#): > > Again, based on what, other than anecdotal evidence? And what evidence to you have that this isn’t so? At least I have the anecdotal evidence. > [@](#): > > I apologize. I was addressing not only your descriptions of your own work but also other practices and opinionsI am aware of, and I muddled everything together and came off as attacking a strawman. Not my intention, sorry. Thank you. > [@](#): > > There are certainly women who want to raise their own children but are not privy to resources available to them, and anyone who provides that access is doing good work. It is, after all, all about increasing the choices available to the women, IMO. Yes. It is about choice. If a woman’s only feasible option is abortion, what kind of a choice is that? A pretty poor one, IMO. > [@](#): > > [But not enough](http://naic.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/s_seek.cfm). > > Even if all the abortions in 2000 had not happened, and half the mothers in those situations kept their kids, you still end up with over a half million kids a year in need of families. Let’s say news of the plight of these children doubles the adoption rate for babies. That still leaves a quarter million kids unadopted at the end of each year, double what it seems to be now. The unadopted babies in the group grow up to be unadopted (and unlikely to be adopted) older children. > > And the sort of government that’s going to enforce a ban on abortion is not the same one that is going to fund the social services necessary to maintain this double-burdened system. Hence the Republicans are the “Party of Squalor, Neglect and Abuse”. You’d be surprised at how many of these people might turn out to be perfectly fine citizens who contribute to the world. I have a friend who grew up in an orphanage…a real orphanage, run by nuns. The kind that are supposed to be dehumanizing. She is a terrific person. She loves the people who raised her, even if she didn’t have a traditional “family.” Is she not worth having around because her parents died when she was 6, far past the age of being “adoptable?” And in regards to social programs, I am not against them. I am against ones that are run in inefficent, wasteful, destructive manners. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/87 "2006-06-18T13:27:21Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > This, ladies and gentlemen is the crux of the entire dispute. > > If you think that fetuses are not human, you may do with them as you wish. > > If you believe that fetuses are human, they deserve protection from those able to give it, no matter how they were conceived. > > A bit from the Bible, and a bit from DNA, I can’t see my way clear to see fetuses as “not people”. What else are they, then? You can’t distinguish genetically between them and us. “Not developed” in my mind is equivalent to “let’s kill the retarded”. Getting back to the book “Party of Death,” this is one of his major points regarding abortion. They have human DNA. They are not different from us. Regarding the retarded, I too believe that the justification for abortion on the grounds that the fetus isn’t a person is just inches away from justifying euthanizing all kinds of people because they don’t fit our defintion of what a person should be. [Peter Singer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Singer), the famous ethicist from Princeton has already made a case for doing away with severely disabled people. > [@](#): > > Yes, I realize that there will be a dogpile on this post, since the general trend on this board is toward a bit of a leftist tilt (please don’t try to deny it, just go with it). But my opinion is not made from popular sentiment, and there you have it. > > I would appreciate it, though, if for ONCE, I could not be demonized for this idea (unfortunately, I’m not kidding, much). This is what bugs me the most. It seems to be beyond the ability of some people to understand that there are people who sincerely, genuinely, believe these unborn babies are…PEOPLE! And that we want to protect them as such. Statements such as this one by **volvelle** (speaking on the same subject, but in another thread): > [@](#): > > The anti-abortion movement has little to do with “saving babies” and a lot to do with keeping women in their place., is not only inflammatory, it’s just plain wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/88 "2006-06-18T13:28:42Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > And I have to reply that this is to the the horrible, horrible equivalency of “unwanted” (according to whom?) and “should be dead”. Jocelyn Elders was apparently a horrible person. No, I’m not backing down from that. Google her statements on Down’s Syndrom kids if you like. Exactly. Who are we to say that those who are unwanted by their parents are not worth anything as individuals, and not worth anything to society? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/89 "2006-06-18T13:33:27Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Reasons for abortions. > > [http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf](http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3711005.pdf) > > pdf file > > 74% it would interfere with work, education or ability to care for dependents > 73% cannot afford the baby right now > 48% have relationship problems or do not want to be a single mother > > 40% said they were done having kids and had enough > 33%ish said they were too young to have kids > Finances does seem to be the big reason though. That and the added responsibility. These reasons are similar to the ones that **scotandrsn** listed. Seems to me that most of these are problems that can be solved in ways other than having an abortion, and your statistics do not show how many of these women would rather NOT have an abortion, if they were able to solve those problems. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/90 "2006-06-18T13:34:04Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Getting back to the book “Party of Death,” this is one of his major points regarding abortion. They have human DNA. They are not different from us. Regarding the retarded, I too believe that the justification for abortion on the grounds that the fetus isn’t a person is just inches away from justifying euthanizing all kinds of people because they don’t fit our defintion of what a person should be. There is a quite vast distance between a small bundle of cells and a retarded person. If anything, that you would compare the two and believe equivalency disgusts me, especially coming from a person who claims to care more for life. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/91 "2006-06-18T13:46:11Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Folks- > I started this thread to discuss the fellow’s book. I appreciate all the comments on it, and I may buy it when I get back to the US. > > I did not mean to start an abortion debate. It is not amiable to discussion, **each of us must make a personal decision**. While you are certainly free to talk about this, I wanted to apologize for stirring up emotions. That was certainly not my intent. The bolded part, in itself, assumes “facts” not in evidence: you’re doing the same thing other people on both sides are doing. While it’s true that it’s not very discussable, if fewer people would assume that a fetus either obviously is alive or is not (and thus can be restricted to an entirely personal decision,) it might be a more viable (heh) topic. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/92 "2006-06-18T13:46:42Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Certainly there is other work that also benefits but wouldn’t it be refreshing to see conservatives and liberals working together to benefit others? Yes, it really would be great. I have to say that the deafening silence towards this program towards liberals in my parish has really left a bad taste in my mouth. If people REALLY cared about choice, it seems to me they would help to give women real choices. > [@](#): > > May I ask a few questions about the program? > > Where do women come from? Do they seek you out? I am not too involved with this part of it, but I will try to answer your questions. I believe they are generally referred to us by some other social-service organizatin. > [@](#): > > Does your program advise people to definitely\* not \*have an abortion or simply offer support for mothers who wants their child but has concerns about their abilities and resources? Well, I’m sure you realize that as a Catholic organization, our mission is to help people who want to find an alternative to abortion if they can, thereby hopefully preventing abortions and bringing babies into the world. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Where does the funding come from? Does the program directly provide funds for those in need or connect them to other programs? Both. We fundraise as well as take donated items to help the mothers, but we also hook them up with the appropriate social programs, such as WIC and things like that. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/93 "2006-06-18T13:47:53Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Folks- > I started this thread to discuss the fellow’s book. I appreciate all the comments on it, and I may buy it when I get back to the US. > > I did not mean to start an abortion debate. It is not amiable to discussion, each of us must make a personal decision. While you are certainly free to talk about this, I wanted to apologize for stirring up emotions. That was certainly not my intent. Did not mean to hijack the thread, but it is kind of hard not to, since these are the issues discussed in it! Sorry! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/94 "2006-06-18T13:50:51Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Did not mean to hijack the thread, but it is kind of hard not to, since these are the issues discussed in it! Sorry! 🙂 Issues discussed in the book, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/95 "2006-06-18T13:52:11Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > There is a quite vast distance between a small bundle of cells and a retarded person. If anything, that you would compare the two and believe equivalency disgusts me, especially coming from a person who claims to care more for life. Well, the idea that you call a baby a “small bundle of cells” disgusts me. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/96 "2006-06-18T13:53:07Z")
It’s a Catholic, pro-life organisation, and you’re wondering why there aren’t many liberals volunteering? By the same token, I could be horrified at the great lack of Catholic or pro-life people working in an abortion clinic; the numbers really aren’t likely to be high, now, are they? It’d be against their own personal idealogy. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/97 "2006-06-18T13:53:54Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > But, with all due respect, we’re not talking about whether or not it’s acceptable to you. We’re talking about what would make pregnant women prefer not to keep their pregnancy, and this is a legitimate opinion in that regard. OK, IN MY OPINION, it can only be considered legitimate “self-defense” if you are in danger of dying. And, IN MY OPINION, this is reasonable justification for abortion. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/98 "2006-06-18T13:56:12Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Well, the idea that you call a baby a “small bundle of cells” disgusts me. That’s fair, i’m sure i’d feel the same way, if I had your views. Actually, “small bundle of cells” is an accurate description; whether or not you ascribe a soul or consciousness to a baby/foetus/whatever in that position, it is without a doubt a small bundle of cells. Humans are a large, complex bundle of cells. These are, at the least, facts. If I may, I’d like to understand your position (since there can be so many); at what point, to you, does life begin? Fertilisation? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/99 "2006-06-18T13:56:17Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > It’s a Catholic, pro-life organisation, and you’re wondering why there aren’t many liberals volunteering? By the same token, I could be horrified at the great lack of Catholic or pro-life people working in an abortion clinic; the numbers really aren’t likely to be high, now, are they? It’d be against their own personal idealogy. If you read the thread, I was talking about people in my parish who are self described as being Catholic AND pro-life, but who also are self described as being liberals. They do not volunteer. We have many requests in the parish bulletin for volunteers, and they never, ever do. They volunteer for the anti-war groups, which is great. But they do not volunteer to help these mothers. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/100 "2006-06-18T13:58:28Z")
And, additionally, my point was that if liberals care so much about women’s choice that they work tirelessly to be sure that abortion remains legal, maybe they should also work tirelessly to help the women who CHOOSE to keep their babies. And I don’t mean voting for Democrats who create social programs. I mean REALLY HELPING women in THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD who need and want help. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810.md?page=6)