# "Party of Death" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 15, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810 "2006-06-15T15:35:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/121 "2006-06-18T20:58:45Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Interestingly, he says right in the forward of the book that the title does NOT refer to the Democratic party. The words “the Democrats” are in the book’s [TITLE](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596980044/sr=8-1/qid=1150664239/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6290499-7531212?%5Fencoding=UTF8). ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/122 "2006-06-18T20:59:41Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I can accept that many people **do** see a fetus as a person. I don’t completely understand the insistence that it _is_ a person. Well, it’s kind of hard to imagine personhood being a matter of opinion! I mean, seriously if I believe a fetus is a person, how can I really say “but it’s ok if you don’t think so.” It’s either a person, or it’s not. This is actually one of the reasons I am pro-life. There are women who have abortions, and then later when pregnant with a wanted child, show the 6-week ultrasound to their friends and say “here’s a picture of the baby.” I can’t wrap my head around the idea that if it’s wanted, it’s a baby, and should be protected, and if it’s not wanted, it’s a fetus that you can just get rid of. Perhaps it’s personal to me, having been one of these unwanted babies, but it just is a dichotomy that I can’t reconcile in my own mind. > [@](#): > > I can see that those who see a fetus as a person most morally support protecting them as such. The question then becomes what can we realistically do that doesn’t violate the rights of others. That’s the really tricky part. Making abortion completely illegal then says to a woman that once they conceive that fetus within them as all the legal rights as any existing person. Is that where we want to go. Right now anyone, responsible or not can have children. We have to draw realistic lines we can live with when it comes to neglect and abuse and when we decide a person is unfit to have children we have to be willing and able to assume the responsibility for those children. Well, you can’t really decide in advance who is fit or unfit. I know that there have to be systems in place to help children with abusive or neglectful parents, of course, but it’s hard to predict who will or won’t be abusive. Even mothers who have unplanned babies are terrific mothers the vast majority of the time. > [@](#): > > The same for outlawing abortion. Even putting aside the invasion of the woman’s rights and her physical body, if we as a society declare abortion illegal then we have to assume responsibility for those children. Perhaps we should work harder at doing exactly that before we seek to pass laws prohibiting the choice of others. I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with that. I’m not particularly hot on the idea of outlawing abortion. I believe that more restrictions might be a good idea, and I believe in legislating it through state legislatures and not federal courts, but I think it’s more important to work on social issues that help women not to be stuck in these bad situations in the first place. Whether or not these issues can be solved through massive social programs with faceless bureaucracies is another story altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/123 "2006-06-18T21:04:55Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’ll say it again. I think our government has shown that for the most part it is wasteful and somewhat incompetent when it comes to administering programs like this. I also think we as a society have come to a place where we want to throw money at a problem and have some “professional” government worker handle it rather than help the needy eyeball to eyeball. IMO We are the poorer for it. I think what’s being said is that voting Democrat and paying your taxes may not be a good enough response. Again, that’s how I feel, too. These are real women with real problems, and oftentimes the government social programs fail them on so many levels. I would 100% rather these women come to an organization that will help them get job training, and get a decent place to live, than have the government give them a welfare check and an apartment in subsidized housing, and say, “here you go…you’ll probably be living like this for the next 30 years, and your kids will too, when they grow up…good luck!” > [@](#): > > and **Sarahfeena** has done a marvelous job of showing us the equal and opposite side of that coin. I for one really appreciate it. You have no idea how much I appreciate your saying this. As you can tell, it is an issue I feel passionate about. I’d love to think that I am at least giving people some food for thought. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/124 "2006-06-18T21:07:55Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > So he’s working the death penalty into the argument? How does he square that with the title of his book: [The Party of Death: The Democrats, the Media, the Courts, and the Disregard for Human Life.](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596980044/104-4393470-4499966?v=glance&n=283155) Are the Democrats now the party of the death penalty too? Perhaps he’s finding that the Coulter style of polemics is not well suited to his purposes. I say that the horse left that barn when he came up with his subtitle. > > I haven’t read the book, but I did watch his interview on the Daily Show. It was less than convincing, to put it mildly. In fact, it was a bit embarrassing to see someone get cornholed so completely with so little effort. > > Perhaps if you could succinctly describe the argument that you felt so compelling, we could discuss it. Otherwise, “unpersons” is simply a rhetorical issue that changes nothing about the debate. Yes, abortion is acceptable and embroynic stem cell research is acceptable because it involves “unpersons” in the same way that my sperm are “unpersons.” > > Chilling? Perhaps, if you already believe that abortion is murder. Otherwise, not so much. I was going to say close to the exact same thing. I saw the same interview and wasn’t impressed at all by him. Perhaps he’s more able to articulate himself with a book, time, and research on his hands…which is fine. Comparing her to Coulter…is still shaky. I see why you’d say it and will hop along with your argument for a short distance. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/125 "2006-06-18T21:20:32Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Cool. I don’t agree with your views, but I can respect your position. Thanks…me too! 🙂 > [@](#): > > No, I guess not. We’ll have to do something about those damn baby-killing Catholics. 😉 I know! Who would have ever thought it, huh? Truly, for all the reputation Catholics have as conservatives & pro-lifers, some of the most liberal people I have ever met have been Catholics…they are socialists, really. The Church has a much more socialist bent than you might imagine, because of the duty we have to help the poor, and this often includes an typically liberal attitude towards abortion, that it is sort of a necessary evil in the fight against poverty. > [@](#): > > Firstly because they aren’t equal, even from the strictest pro-lifer’s view. Potential does (in their view) lend equivalence, but that potential takes time to become the fully developed clump like you and I. During that time, many things can go wrong; that potential still requires input from the mother until it can become fully developed, for example. Actually, I am not what you would call a strict pro-lifer, and I believe that they are equal. I don’t see even a zygote as “potential,” but as a human with its own distinct DNA which makes it unique from all other humans. As an illustration of this, I would not use an IUD or other form of birth control that causes a fertilized egg to not implant…even at that early stage, I believe in the life that has been created. > [@](#): > > Secondly, and here’s the point where I get into the specifics of my own view, I don’t believe potential comes into the equation much. The small clump of cells can pretty much be replaced at any point (although this lessens as time goes on). For me, to compare a fully developed large clump of cells like us with a small clump of cells like a foetus, is pretty much the same as comparing a person to a finger, or a nose. I’ll understand that you disagree, I just want to hopefully show you why disgust is the reasonable emotion for me. I can understand this point of view, but in all seriousness, that clump of cells is not a nose or a finger. It has the full DNA for its own unique personhood. Unless something interferes with it, it is on an unstoppable trajectory towards becoming someone just like you. A nose or a finger will never do that in a million years. Certainly, YOU were never just a nose, or a finger, but you were once a similar little clump of cells. To me, this makes all the difference in the world. Given my opinion that this little tiny clump of cells is an actual person, is it still disgusting to you that I equate its murder with that of murdering someone disabled? To you, it may be vastly different, but to me…same thing. This example was certainly not meant to show what little regard I have for retarded people, it was meant to show how MUCH regard I have for those “little clumps of cells.” ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/126 "2006-06-18T21:21:53Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > The words “the Democrats” are in the book’s [TITLE](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1596980044/sr=8-1/qid=1150664239/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-6290499-7531212?%5Fencoding=UTF8). I know, along with several other groups. The point is he is not renaming the Democratic party the “Party of Death,” per se. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/127 "2006-06-18T21:24:46Z")
> [@volvelle](#): > > If the anti-abortion movement were truly interested in reducing the number of abortions, they would be at the forefront of the people trying to get comprehensive sex education taught in school, making sure birth-control is legal and available, and getting plan-b through the FDA. As the exact opposite is in fact true, I find it hard to see as anything other than an anti-woman movement. Many people believe that comprehensive sex education leads to **more** teen pregnancy problems. Certainly, birth control should be legal and available (where is it not?!) Plan B is another issue altogether…some believe (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), that it CAN cause fertilized eggs to not implant. Have been meaning to try to get more info on this, but haven’t had a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/128 "2006-06-18T21:27:25Z")
> [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > Comparing her to Coulter…is still shaky. I see why you’d say it and will hop along with your argument for a short distance. Well, I don’t think I compared him to Coulter, only that I suggested that he might be finding her style of polemics to be not what he had hoped. I say this since he seems to try to disavow his own subtitle, whereas she would bald-facedly wallow in the shock and disgust that illogical and offensive statements tend to elicit. He himself does not seem to me like Ann Coulter. We’ll see, if he writes anything else in the future, if he chooses again to suggest that specific political parties revel in death, treason, godlessness or whatever else. I would also like to thank **scotandrsn** for his contributions to this thread, especially his demonstration that the “good-hearted” protesters and their ilk out there tend not to show up at the adoption agency. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/129 "2006-06-18T21:38:46Z")
[QUOTE] Originally Posted by Sarahfeena And, additionally, my point was that if liberals care so much about women’s choice that they work tirelessly to be sure that abortion remains legal, maybe they should also work tirelessly to help the women who CHOOSE to keep their babies. And I don’t mean voting for Democrats who create social programs. I mean REALLY HELPING women in THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD who need and want help. /QUOTE] What would this help be? What’s so wrong with social programs? Social programs do work. They fail to work when their funding gets cut and they become outdated. Instead of saying “(insert your favorite demonized social program) doesn’t work!”, we shouldn’t simply get rid of it, we should change it and make it work properly. I’m in this debate late, but I saw that you were also disgusted with the notion that a baby is a small clump of cells. Of course a person is really nothing more than a clump of cells fo begin with and a child/baby is simply a smaller clump of those similar cells. This is one of the problems with this debate. You’ll say that they aren’t clumps of cells, that they’re persons, and they should be treated thusly. We can’t make any headway until we make some concessions around here. (didn’t we try this in a previous debate?) Again, someone is a hypocrite when they’re pro war, pro death penalty, and anti abortion. How does one reconcile this? If you’re pro war, be pro death penalty, and pro abortion. You can’t pick and choose. If life is sacred, act that way. This also cuts the other way. Being Pro choice means being anti war and anti death penalty. This sounds like a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/130 "2006-06-18T21:39:55Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > Well, I don’t think I compared him to Coulter, only that I suggested that he might be finding her style of polemics to be not what he had hoped. I say this since he seems to try to disavow his own subtitle, whereas she would bald-facedly wallow in the shock and disgust that illogical and offensive statements tend to elicit. > > He himself does not seem to me like Ann Coulter. We’ll see, if he writes anything else in the future, if he chooses again to suggest that specific political parties revel in death, treason, godlessness or whatever else. > > I would also like to thank **scotandrsn** for his contributions to this thread, especially his demonstration that the “good-hearted” protesters and their ilk out there tend not to show up at the adoption agency. I know. I was comparing him to Coulter. He’s started the journey through the filth, let’s see if he’ll finish it and drink from the Cup of Coulter. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/131 "2006-06-18T21:41:26Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Many people believe that comprehensive sex education leads to **more** teen pregnancy problems. Certainly, birth control should be legal and available (where is it not?!) Plan B is another issue altogether…some believe (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), that it CAN cause fertilized eggs to not implant. Have been meaning to try to get more info on this, but haven’t had a chance. The morning after pill can also be used as an abortifacient. That makes the lining of the uterus unreceptive to the fertilized egg. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/132 "2006-06-18T21:46:25Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > I know, along with several other groups. The point is he is not renaming the Democratic party the “Party of Death,” per se. Then why use the word “Party”? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/133 "2006-06-18T22:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever] [QUOTE] Originally Posted by Sarahfeena And, additionally, my point was that if liberals care so much about women’s choice that they work tirelessly to be sure that abortion remains legal, maybe they should also work tirelessly to help the women who CHOOSE to keep their babies. And I don’t mean voting for Democrats who create social programs. I mean REALLY HELPING women in THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD who need and want help. /QUOTE] > [@](#): > > What would this help be? What’s so wrong with social programs? > > Social programs do work. They fail to work when their funding gets cut and they become outdated. Instead of saying “(insert your favorite demonized social program) doesn’t work!”, we shouldn’t simply get rid of it, we should change it and make it work properly. As I said, I think if people really cared, it wouldn’t just be about throwing tax dollars at it. Put your time & effort where your mouth is. > [@](#): > > I’m in this debate late, but I saw that you were also disgusted with the notion that a baby is a small clump of cells. Of course a person is really nothing more than a clump of cells fo begin with and a child/baby is simply a smaller clump of those similar cells. This is one of the problems with this debate. You’ll say that they aren’t clumps of cells, that they’re persons, and they should be treated thusly. We can’t make any headway until we make some concessions around here. (didn’t we try this in a previous debate?) Yes, we did, and I am not particularly interested in going over it again! I only did because people asked, and they were different people than the ones who participated in the other thread. > [@](#): > > Again, someone is a hypocrite when they’re pro war, pro death penalty, and anti abortion. How does one reconcile this? If you’re pro war, be pro death penalty, and pro abortion. You can’t pick and choose. If life is sacred, act that way. > This also cuts the other way. Being Pro choice means being anti war and anti death penalty. I tried to explain my thoughts on this in another thread on this same topic, and I re-posted one of my posts here…so I won’t go over it again, but briefly, I do not feel that these situations are analagous, and I think that killing people, born or unborn, is justified under certain circumstances. Some people may feel that the war is a justified circumstance, and that embryonic stem cell research is not justified (or vice-versa). I feel a strong case could be made either way. > [@](#): > > This sounds like a new thread. Yup. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/134 "2006-06-18T22:23:21Z")
> [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > The morning after pill can also be used as an abortifacient. That makes the lining of the uterus unreceptive to the fertilized egg. This is what I thought…so, it might seem simple to say “people should have access to Plan B,” and maybe they should, but I personally think that the easier it is to abort, the more cavalierly it will be done. I do not think this is a positive thing for society. ---
**Author:** ![volvelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e0b2c6/32.png) [@volvelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/volvelle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/135 "2006-06-18T22:25:24Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Many people believe that comprehensive sex education leads to **more** teen pregnancy problems. Many people would be wrong. The [Waxman](http://www.guttmacher.org/media/inthenews/2004/12/03/index.html) study showed that graduates of abstinance programs may delay sexual activity a little longer, but were far more likely to not use birth control when they did engage in it. Comprehensive sex ed [reduces HIV.](http://www.apa.org/releases/sexeducation.html) [Effectiveness of abstinance-only education.](http://democrats.reform.house.gov/features/politics_and_science/example_abstinence.htm) The obligatory wikipedia [article.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_education#Scientific_study_of_sex_education) A lot more links [here.](http://www.advocatesforyouth.org/sexeducation.htm) > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Certainly, birth control should be legal and available (where is it not?!) Aside from the movement to allow pharmacists to deny filling birth control and morning after prescriptions? Completely banned? No, not yet, but without too much digging you can find plenty of evidence that that’s the next target after abortion. [A Salon article](http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2006/03/20/anti_contraception/index_np.html) (requires a free pass). [Kansas house bans funding of birth control.](http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/local/14109047.htm) [A New York Times article.](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/magazine/07contraception.html?ex=1304654400&en=fd92772f01a5c709&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss) Those were just the first couple after googling “war on birth control”. The government regularly misrepresents the effectiveness of condoms, has appointed a number of anti-birth control people to key positions in the health department, and tries to link the pill to cancer. > [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Plan B is another issue altogether…some believe (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), that it CAN cause fertilized eggs to not implant. Have been meaning to try to get more info on this, but haven’t had a chance. Plan-B is nothing more than an extra dose of regular birth control pills. It prevents an egg from being released from the ovaries. That’s it. It does not cause abortion, and it is nor the same thing as RU486. [Here](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/04/why_the_wingnuts_hate_plan_b.php) is an excellent summary of what Plan B is, how it works and what it does. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/136 "2006-06-18T22:27:44Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > As I said, I think if people really cared, it wouldn’t just be about throwing tax dollars at it. Put your time & effort where your mouth is. While I don’t disagree completely with the sentiment, if we used this as a guideline, shouldn’t the supporters of the war all be enlisting or volunteering for the war effort in some other way? There are a hell of a lot more tax dollars going to it (and I don’t want to fund it) than are going to any subsidized abortion organizations (which you don’t want to fund). ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/137 "2006-06-18T22:32:41Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > While I don’t disagree completely with the sentiment, if we used this as a guideline, shouldn’t the supporters of the war all be enlisting or volunteering for the war effort in some other way? There are a hell of a lot more tax dollars going to it (and I don’t want to fund it) than are going to any subsidized abortion organizations (which you don’t want to fund). Pretty much what I was going to say. What would entail “putting your time and effort where your mouth is” in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/138 "2006-06-18T22:34:11Z")
> [@Sarahfeena](#): > > Actually, I am not what you would call a strict pro-lifer, and I believe that they are equal. I don’t see even a zygote as “potential,” but as a human with its own distinct DNA which makes it unique from all other humans. As an illustration of this, I would not use an IUD or other form of birth control that causes a fertilized egg to not implant…even at that early stage, I believe in the life that has been created. But a tumour also falls under the “human with distinct DNA”, while an identical twin is human but doesn’t have distinct DNA (there being a copy of it). > [@](#): > > I can understand this point of view, but in all seriousness, that clump of cells is not a nose or a finger. It has the full DNA for its own unique personhood. Actually, so does a nose or a finger; they too have the DNA “pattern” for a whole body contained within them. > [@](#): > > Unless something interferes with it, it is on an unstoppable trajectory towards becoming someone just like you. Uhm, isn’t that contradictory? It’s unstoppable, \*unless \* something interferes? > [@](#): > > A nose or a finger will never do that in a million years. A foetus will, but it requires input from the mother. Given a good few years and some fancy scientific work, we could be able to create life from that nose or toe, too. Would your position change, or would you consider that “too much” input? > [@](#): > > Certainly, YOU were never just a nose, or a finger, but you were once a similar little clump of cells. To me, this makes all the difference in the world. Not really, to me. I don’t believe in the concept of souls (or similar) so while in fact I share no physical characteristics with that little clump of cells (beyond different copies of my DNA), I don’t believe (my opinion) that the thing I refer to as “me” existed, then. The only thing I share with it is that DNA; same thing with my nose or a finger. > [@](#): > > Given my opinion that this little tiny clump of cells is an actual person, is it still disgusting to you that I equate its murder with that of murdering someone disabled? To you, it may be vastly different, but to me…same thing. This example was certainly not meant to show what little regard I have for retarded people, it was meant to show how MUCH regard I have for those “little clumps of cells.” You’re right, it was harsh of me to say that. I still don’t think you’re correct, and I don’t _like_ your view, but then I imagine you think the same of me and my not recognizing a foetus as equal to a living human. I apologise for my reaction; it was misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/139 "2006-06-18T23:05:03Z")
**volvelle** , you are missing my entire point. I could come up with a bunch of links to articles & studies that refute the ones you linked to…but there is no reason to, because I will never change your mind about what you believe. However, the point I was trying to make is that being pro-life does not necessarily mean that you are involved in some sinister plot to oppress women. THAT is your point that I found offensive. My pro-life stance has nothing to do with hating women and everything to do with wanting to support women and give babies a chance to live. Regarding Plan B, forgive me for not wanting to get my information from the obviously partisan blog you linked to. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810/140 "2006-06-18T23:13:07Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > But a tumour also falls under the “human with distinct DNA”, while an identical twin is human but doesn’t have distinct DNA (there being a copy of it). A tumor attached to what? A person? Then it surely is not likely to develop into a human being at any point. And OK, there are identical twins that do not have their own distinct DNA, granted. This was not really the important part of my argument, though. > [@](#): > > Actually, so does a nose or a finger; they too have the DNA “pattern” for a whole body contained within them. But…they are not going to ever become a person. They are just what they are…a body part. > [@](#): > > Uhm, isn’t that contradictory? It’s unstoppable, \*unless \* something interferes? No…you are going to be 100 years old, unless something interferes with that. If you never get sick, get hit buy a bus, or have anything else interfere with your life, you will go on living. Just like a fetus. > [@](#): > > A foetus will, but it requires input from the mother. Granted, but this was not my argument. > [@](#): > > Given a good few years and some fancy scientific work, we could be able to create life from that nose or toe, too. Would your position change, or would you consider that “too much” input? Not really, to me. I don’t believe in the concept of souls (or similar) so while in fact I share no physical characteristics with that little clump of cells (beyond different copies of my DNA), I don’t believe (my opinion) that the thing I refer to as “me” existed, then. The only thing I share with it is that DNA; same thing with my nose or a finger. A nose or a finger is just a nose or a finger. If someone takes cells from that body part, and creates a clone that is on a similar developmental track as any normally-created fetus, then and only then would I feel the need to protect it as a human being. > [@](#): > > You’re right, it was harsh of me to say that. I still don’t think you’re correct, and I don’t _like_ your view, but then I imagine you think the same of me and my not recognizing a foetus as equal to a living human. I apologise for my reaction; it was misplaced. I take back mine, too…I don’t really feel that abortion is “disgusting,” at least not in all cases, but I was just trying to make a point. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/party-of-death/360810.md?page=8)