The words “the Democrats” are in the book’s TITLE.
Well, it’s kind of hard to imagine personhood being a matter of opinion! I mean, seriously if I believe a fetus is a person, how can I really say “but it’s ok if you don’t think so.” It’s either a person, or it’s not. This is actually one of the reasons I am pro-life. There are women who have abortions, and then later when pregnant with a wanted child, show the 6-week ultrasound to their friends and say “here’s a picture of the baby.” I can’t wrap my head around the idea that if it’s wanted, it’s a baby, and should be protected, and if it’s not wanted, it’s a fetus that you can just get rid of. Perhaps it’s personal to me, having been one of these unwanted babies, but it just is a dichotomy that I can’t reconcile in my own mind.
Well, you can’t really decide in advance who is fit or unfit. I know that there have to be systems in place to help children with abusive or neglectful parents, of course, but it’s hard to predict who will or won’t be abusive. Even mothers who have unplanned babies are terrific mothers the vast majority of the time.
I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with that. I’m not particularly hot on the idea of outlawing abortion. I believe that more restrictions might be a good idea, and I believe in legislating it through state legislatures and not federal courts, but I think it’s more important to work on social issues that help women not to be stuck in these bad situations in the first place. Whether or not these issues can be solved through massive social programs with faceless bureaucracies is another story altogether.
Again, that’s how I feel, too. These are real women with real problems, and oftentimes the government social programs fail them on so many levels. I would 100% rather these women come to an organization that will help them get job training, and get a decent place to live, than have the government give them a welfare check and an apartment in subsidized housing, and say, “here you go…you’ll probably be living like this for the next 30 years, and your kids will too, when they grow up…good luck!”
You have no idea how much I appreciate your saying this. As you can tell, it is an issue I feel passionate about. I’d love to think that I am at least giving people some food for thought.
I was going to say close to the exact same thing. I saw the same interview and wasn’t impressed at all by him. Perhaps he’s more able to articulate himself with a book, time, and research on his hands…which is fine.
Comparing her to Coulter…is still shaky. I see why you’d say it and will hop along with your argument for a short distance.
Thanks…me too! 
I know! Who would have ever thought it, huh? Truly, for all the reputation Catholics have as conservatives & pro-lifers, some of the most liberal people I have ever met have been Catholics…they are socialists, really. The Church has a much more socialist bent than you might imagine, because of the duty we have to help the poor, and this often includes an typically liberal attitude towards abortion, that it is sort of a necessary evil in the fight against poverty.
Actually, I am not what you would call a strict pro-lifer, and I believe that they are equal. I don’t see even a zygote as “potential,” but as a human with its own distinct DNA which makes it unique from all other humans. As an illustration of this, I would not use an IUD or other form of birth control that causes a fertilized egg to not implant…even at that early stage, I believe in the life that has been created.
I can understand this point of view, but in all seriousness, that clump of cells is not a nose or a finger. It has the full DNA for its own unique personhood. Unless something interferes with it, it is on an unstoppable trajectory towards becoming someone just like you. A nose or a finger will never do that in a million years. Certainly, YOU were never just a nose, or a finger, but you were once a similar little clump of cells. To me, this makes all the difference in the world.
Given my opinion that this little tiny clump of cells is an actual person, is it still disgusting to you that I equate its murder with that of murdering someone disabled? To you, it may be vastly different, but to me…same thing. This example was certainly not meant to show what little regard I have for retarded people, it was meant to show how MUCH regard I have for those “little clumps of cells.”
I know, along with several other groups. The point is he is not renaming the Democratic party the “Party of Death,” per se.
Many people believe that comprehensive sex education leads to more teen pregnancy problems. Certainly, birth control should be legal and available (where is it not?!) Plan B is another issue altogether…some believe (and I have no idea whether this is true or not), that it CAN cause fertilized eggs to not implant. Have been meaning to try to get more info on this, but haven’t had a chance.
Well, I don’t think I compared him to Coulter, only that I suggested that he might be finding her style of polemics to be not what he had hoped. I say this since he seems to try to disavow his own subtitle, whereas she would bald-facedly wallow in the shock and disgust that illogical and offensive statements tend to elicit.
He himself does not seem to me like Ann Coulter. We’ll see, if he writes anything else in the future, if he chooses again to suggest that specific political parties revel in death, treason, godlessness or whatever else.
I would also like to thank scotandrsn for his contributions to this thread, especially his demonstration that the “good-hearted” protesters and their ilk out there tend not to show up at the adoption agency.
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Sarahfeena
And, additionally, my point was that if liberals care so much about women’s choice that they work tirelessly to be sure that abortion remains legal, maybe they should also work tirelessly to help the women who CHOOSE to keep their babies. And I don’t mean voting for Democrats who create social programs. I mean REALLY HELPING women in THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD who need and want help. /QUOTE]
What would this help be? What’s so wrong with social programs?
Social programs do work. They fail to work when their funding gets cut and they become outdated. Instead of saying “(insert your favorite demonized social program) doesn’t work!”, we shouldn’t simply get rid of it, we should change it and make it work properly.
I’m in this debate late, but I saw that you were also disgusted with the notion that a baby is a small clump of cells. Of course a person is really nothing more than a clump of cells fo begin with and a child/baby is simply a smaller clump of those similar cells. This is one of the problems with this debate. You’ll say that they aren’t clumps of cells, that they’re persons, and they should be treated thusly. We can’t make any headway until we make some concessions around here. (didn’t we try this in a previous debate?)
Again, someone is a hypocrite when they’re pro war, pro death penalty, and anti abortion. How does one reconcile this? If you’re pro war, be pro death penalty, and pro abortion. You can’t pick and choose. If life is sacred, act that way.
This also cuts the other way. Being Pro choice means being anti war and anti death penalty.
This sounds like a new thread.
I know. I was comparing him to Coulter. He’s started the journey through the filth, let’s see if he’ll finish it and drink from the Cup of Coulter.
The morning after pill can also be used as an abortifacient. That makes the lining of the uterus unreceptive to the fertilized egg.
Then why use the word “Party”?
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Sarahfeena
And, additionally, my point was that if liberals care so much about women’s choice that they work tirelessly to be sure that abortion remains legal, maybe they should also work tirelessly to help the women who CHOOSE to keep their babies. And I don’t mean voting for Democrats who create social programs. I mean REALLY HELPING women in THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD who need and want help. /QUOTE]
As I said, I think if people really cared, it wouldn’t just be about throwing tax dollars at it. Put your time & effort where your mouth is.
Yes, we did, and I am not particularly interested in going over it again! I only did because people asked, and they were different people than the ones who participated in the other thread.
I tried to explain my thoughts on this in another thread on this same topic, and I re-posted one of my posts here…so I won’t go over it again, but briefly, I do not feel that these situations are analagous, and I think that killing people, born or unborn, is justified under certain circumstances. Some people may feel that the war is a justified circumstance, and that embryonic stem cell research is not justified (or vice-versa). I feel a strong case could be made either way.
Yup.
This is what I thought…so, it might seem simple to say “people should have access to Plan B,” and maybe they should, but I personally think that the easier it is to abort, the more cavalierly it will be done. I do not think this is a positive thing for society.
Many people would be wrong. The Waxman study showed that graduates of abstinance programs may delay sexual activity a little longer, but were far more likely to not use birth control when they did engage in it.
Comprehensive sex ed reduces HIV.
Effectiveness of abstinance-only education.
The obligatory wikipedia article.
A lot more links here.
Aside from the movement to allow pharmacists to deny filling birth control and morning after prescriptions?
Completely banned? No, not yet, but without too much digging you can find plenty of evidence that that’s the next target after abortion.
A Salon article (requires a free pass).
Kansas house bans funding of birth control.
Those were just the first couple after googling “war on birth control”. The government regularly misrepresents the effectiveness of condoms, has appointed a number of anti-birth control people to key positions in the health department, and tries to link the pill to cancer.
Plan-B is nothing more than an extra dose of regular birth control pills. It prevents an egg from being released from the ovaries. That’s it. It does not cause abortion, and it is nor the same thing as RU486. Here is an excellent summary of what Plan B is, how it works and what it does.
While I don’t disagree completely with the sentiment, if we used this as a guideline, shouldn’t the supporters of the war all be enlisting or volunteering for the war effort in some other way? There are a hell of a lot more tax dollars going to it (and I don’t want to fund it) than are going to any subsidized abortion organizations (which you don’t want to fund).
Pretty much what I was going to say.
What would entail “putting your time and effort where your mouth is” in the first place?
But a tumour also falls under the “human with distinct DNA”, while an identical twin is human but doesn’t have distinct DNA (there being a copy of it).
Actually, so does a nose or a finger; they too have the DNA “pattern” for a whole body contained within them.
Uhm, isn’t that contradictory? It’s unstoppable, *unless * something interferes?
A foetus will, but it requires input from the mother. Given a good few years and some fancy scientific work, we could be able to create life from that nose or toe, too. Would your position change, or would you consider that “too much” input?
Not really, to me. I don’t believe in the concept of souls (or similar) so while in fact I share no physical characteristics with that little clump of cells (beyond different copies of my DNA), I don’t believe (my opinion) that the thing I refer to as “me” existed, then. The only thing I share with it is that DNA; same thing with my nose or a finger.
You’re right, it was harsh of me to say that. I still don’t think you’re correct, and I don’t like your view, but then I imagine you think the same of me and my not recognizing a foetus as equal to a living human. I apologise for my reaction; it was misplaced.
volvelle, you are missing my entire point. I could come up with a bunch of links to articles & studies that refute the ones you linked to…but there is no reason to, because I will never change your mind about what you believe. However, the point I was trying to make is that being pro-life does not necessarily mean that you are involved in some sinister plot to oppress women. THAT is your point that I found offensive. My pro-life stance has nothing to do with hating women and everything to do with wanting to support women and give babies a chance to live.
Regarding Plan B, forgive me for not wanting to get my information from the obviously partisan blog you linked to.
A tumor attached to what? A person? Then it surely is not likely to develop into a human being at any point. And OK, there are identical twins that do not have their own distinct DNA, granted. This was not really the important part of my argument, though.
But…they are not going to ever become a person. They are just what they are…a body part.
No…you are going to be 100 years old, unless something interferes with that. If you never get sick, get hit buy a bus, or have anything else interfere with your life, you will go on living. Just like a fetus.
Granted, but this was not my argument.
A nose or a finger is just a nose or a finger. If someone takes cells from that body part, and creates a clone that is on a similar developmental track as any normally-created fetus, then and only then would I feel the need to protect it as a human being.
I take back mine, too…I don’t really feel that abortion is “disgusting,” at least not in all cases, but I was just trying to make a point.