# Partying like it's 1859: let's break up families just like we did in the slave days! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965 "2018-05-28T14:27:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/21 "2018-05-28T21:19:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are three different concerns in play: > > (1) Unaccompanied minors who entered the country illegally, were apprehended, and then placed with a sponsor can in some cases not be found by ORR. This is generally a good thing, in my opinion. It might be good in some instances, but we can’t know, and I find it troubling, at best. This seems like it would be much too easy for the kids to be subject to some sort of exploitation. Do you really think that in the vast majority of cases you can be quite certain that the kids are in a safe environment? They are still in the country illegally, and won’t have proper papers when they get older. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/22 "2018-05-28T21:25:50Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > After the 2008 election, Obama gave the Bush Administration war criminals a free ride for their shit. The Trumpistas have been screaming about locking up the Clintons and Obamas since before the 2016 election. > > If the next Democratic President does not have Trump and his people prosecuted for high treason, I shall be writing a _very angry_ letter to the **Times.** Start drafting. Treason is defined in Art 3 Sec 3 of the US Constitution as consisting only in levying war against the United States, or giving enemies thereof aid and comfort, or adhering to them. These terms have been defined by several court cases, so if your first thought was to speculate that perhaps Russia counts as an “enemy,” and “aid and comfort” covers any friendly thing being done, you should disregard that thought now. An “enemy,” within the meaning of Art 3 Sec 3, is a nation or an organization with which the United States is in a declared or open war. Not Russia. “Aid and comfort,” therefore, must be given to an enemy – to subjects of a foreign power in a state of open, declared hostility with the United States. See _US v Greathouse et al_, 2 Abb. U. S. 364 (1863). Stop with the “high treason” nonsense, or adduce facts that show levying war against the United States, or aid to its enemies as defined by the law. Or admit that you don’t care about the law; you’d prosecute people even if they did not violate the law, because you just hate them. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/23 "2018-05-28T21:29:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It might be good in some instances, but we can’t know, and I find it troubling, at best. This seems like it would be much too easy for the kids to be subject to some sort of exploitation. Do you really think that in the vast majority of cases you can be quite certain that the kids are in a safe environment? They are still in the country illegally, and won’t have proper papers when they get older. I think that on balance, here are the situations: A) ORR keeps careful investigative track of the kids and the sponsor families (half the time it’s a parent, and most of the rest of the time some other close relative) to whom the child is released. And then ORR shares that information with ICE, run by an administration that wishes to deport the kids, and won’t mind investigating the rest of the family. B) ORR does a background check on the sponsor, releases the child into custody, and does not keep track. While there are potential dangers, they are outweighed by the dangers of (A). ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/24 "2018-05-28T21:32:43Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > (1) Unaccompanied minors who entered the country illegally, were apprehended, and then placed with a sponsor can in some cases not be found by ORR. This is generally a good thing, in my opinion. Maybe I’m missing something, but I don’t see how this is a good thing. It would only be a good thing if their parents don’t care about them and the sponsors are all great folks (seems to me great caretakers wouldn’t allow themselves to be “lost” by the authorities). I’m not ready to assume either of these is the case without evidence. ---
**Author:** ![mistymage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mistymage/32/459_2.png) [@mistymage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mistymage)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/25 "2018-05-28T21:34:51Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > America, 1858: Black parents and children are forcibly separated. > America, 2018: Brown parents and children are forcibly separated. > > All I can say is, the next time the Dems are in charge, I don’t want to hear any “look forward, not back” crap. There’d better be a reckoning this time. You are missing the Red parents who lost their children to “schools”. And those children lost their heritage (language, names, choice of hair style let alone family/cultural history). > **[American Indian boarding schools](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Indian_boarding_schools)** > > American Indian boarding schools, also known more recently as American Indian residential schools, were established in the United States from the mid-17th to the early 20th centuries with a primary objective of "civilizing" or assimilating Native American children and youth into Anglo-American culture. In the process, these schools denigrated Native American culture and made children give up their languages and religion. At the same time the schools provided a basic Western education. These bo... That’s ok, we’re quite used to being ignored unless someone wants our land. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/26 "2018-05-28T21:38:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I think that on balance, here are the situations: > > A) ORR keeps careful investigative track of the kids and the sponsor families (half the time it’s a parent, and most of the rest of the time some other close relative) to whom the child is released. And then ORR shares that information with ICE, run by an administration that wishes to deport the kids, and won’t mind investigating the rest of the family. > > B) ORR does a background check on the sponsor, releases the child into custody, and does not keep track. While there are potential dangers, they are outweighed by the dangers of (A). If ORR knows who is caring for the kid, then the kid isn’t “lost”. If the kid is “lost”, then ORR doesn’t have any idea where he or she is or who is caring for him/her. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/27 "2018-05-28T22:06:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If ORR knows who is caring for the kid, then the kid isn’t “lost”. If the kid is “lost”, then ORR doesn’t have any idea where he or she is or who is caring for him/her. As I understand the present discussion, the characterization of children in these circumstances as “lost,” arose from the testimony of Steven Wagner, acting assistant secretary of Administration for Children and Families for the Department of Health and Human Services, given to Congress last month. Mr. Wagner said: > [@](#): > > From October to December 2017, ORR attempted to reach 7,635 UAC [unaccompanied alien children] and their sponsors. Of this number, ORR reached and received agreement to participate in the safety and well-being call from approximately 86 percent of sponsors. From these calls, ORR learned that 6,075 UAC remained with their sponsors. Twenty-eight UAC had run away, five had been removed from the United States, and 52 had relocated to live with a non-sponsor. ORR was unable to determine with certainty the whereabouts of 1,475 UAC. This means that they made phone calls and got no answers to the question, either because the phone was not answered, it was disconnected, or the person refused or could not answer the question. This does not mean they made a home visit or used any other method to ascertain the location of the children in question. Once ORR has released the child to a sponsor, the family has no particular obligation to remain contactable. If I were to offer to sponsor my second cousin under these circumstances, I could move to Oklahoma next month and leave ORR with no way of contacting me, and I would not be violating any law in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/28 "2018-05-28T22:19:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are three different concerns in play: > > (1) Unaccompanied minors who entered the country illegally, were apprehended, and then placed with a sponsor can in some cases not be found by ORR. This is generally a good thing, in my opinion. > > (2) Minors who entered the country illegally with their adult guardian(s), were apprehended, and then deliberately separated from their adult guardian(s). This is a bad thing. > > (3) Conflating the two cases – talking about forcibly separated children who are now “lost,” by ORR, for example, as has been done in this thread – is a stupid thing that shows no understanding of the issues but an intense desire to signal how virtuous you are. Shut up. My understanding is that there is also (4) Adults who come to the border and (legally)make an asylum claim are being treated like like your point (2) with their children deliberately being removed from them. In some cases, not sure whether in cases of (2) or (4), the parents are being deported without their children. And they aren’t given instructions of how to get their children back. It’s monstrous. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/29 "2018-05-28T22:22:55Z")
OK, so a parent is separated from their kid, and the kid is put with a host family, and then the ORR is no longer able to contact that family. Fast-forward a bit: The parent has done whatever is needed to get their refugee status approved, with all of the 'i’s dotted and all of the 't’s crossed, and they’re now in the country legally. Heck, maybe they even go through the naturalization process, and become a citizen. They want to be reunited with their child. How does that happen, and who do they call to make it happen? If there’s no one they can call for that, then I think it’s perfectly reasonable to describe the child as “lost”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/30 "2018-05-28T22:29:37Z")
> [@Amara\_1](#): > > My understanding is that there is also > (4) Adults who come to the border and (legally)make an asylum claim are being treated like like your point (2) with their children deliberately being removed from them. That, I had not heard, but if true, it’s also a bad thing. One might use stronger terms without fear of overstating the case. > [@](#): > > In some cases, not sure whether in cases of (2) or (4), the parents are being deported without their children. And they aren’t given instructions of how to get their children back. It’s monstrous. I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/31 "2018-05-28T22:32:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so a parent is separated from their kid, and the kid is put with a host family, and then the ORR is no longer able to contact that family. Fast-forward a bit: The parent has done whatever is needed to get their refugee status approved, with all of the 'i’s dotted and all of the 't’s crossed, and they’re now in the country legally. Heck, maybe they even go through the naturalization process, and become a citizen. They want to be reunited with their child. How does that happen, and who do they call to make it happen? If there’s no one they can call for that, then I think it’s perfectly reasonable to describe the child as “lost”. In the vast majority of cases, the host family is either a parent, or another close relative. Of the children released to sponsors, for FY2017, 49 percent to parents, 41 percent to close relatives, and 10 percent to other-than-close relatives or non-relatives. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/32 "2018-05-28T22:46:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That, I had not heard, but if true, it’s also a bad thing. One might use stronger terms without fear of overstating the case. > > I agree. Then shut up. According to you, saying something is morally wrong without having fully researched the facts is “virtue signaling”, and warrants being told to shut up. Granted, that’s not what virtue signaling actually means, but I’m going by what you said. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2018, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/33 "2018-05-28T23:07:29Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Then shut up. … Of all the people who should know how to say that, you should. It’s _Shut up BigTard_. It’s a board meme. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/34 "2018-05-29T00:51:47Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > …Or admit that you don’t care about the law; you’d prosecute people even if they did not violate the law, because you just hate them. We are so fortunate to have an avatar of civility, decorum and genial, good-natured warmth such as yourself. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/35 "2018-05-29T00:53:54Z")
Wait. Don Rickles is dead, right? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/36 "2018-05-29T01:13:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Bricker** : > > In the vast majority of cases, the host family is either a parent, or another close relative. You meant to say “was”, there, not “is”. Because, you know, of the new Trump policy of separating them. Which is the topic of this thread, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Amara\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7993a0/32.png) [@Amara\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amara_1)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/37 "2018-05-29T02:32:07Z")
[Here](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/5/8/17327512/sessions-illegal-immigration-border-asylum-families) is a link describing asylum seekers who do not cross at ports of entry are treated as criminals. Further note that some border officials refuse to accept asylum seekers. This is a new policy that has just been put in place by Trump and Sessions and seeks to use the separation to punish families for seeking asylum. > [@](#): > > Federal and international law prevent the government from deporting people back to danger. And it’s perfectly legal for someone to present herself for asylum at a port of entry, as the immigrants in the Central American “caravan” did last week. > > But as the caravan showed, ports of entry often lack the resources to process asylum seekers quickly. Furthermore, some human rights groups accuse border officials of illegally refusing to accept asylum seekers trying to present themselves at entry points. > > Many asylum seekers, therefore, choose to cross between ports of entry — to cross illegally into the US — and present themselves to Border Patrol. > > When an asylum seeker crosses into the US illegally, she commits a federal misdemeanor. Under previous administrations, the Department of Homeland Security usually processed her asylum case first rather than referring her to the Department of Justice for federal prosecution. Even if DHS referred her for prosecution, DOJ wouldn’t usually bother to actually prosecute her before her asylum case was complete. [Here](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/hhs-official-says-agency-lost-track-of-nearly-1500-unaccompanied-minors/) is additional information on the lost children. This is an ongoing issue that is (apparently) getting worse. There has been minimal oversight of ICE for years. > [@](#): > > **In 2014, at least 10 trafficking victims, including eight minors, were discovered during a raid by federal and local law enforcement** in Portman’s home state of Ohio. As FRONTLINE examined in the recent documentary Trafficked in America, **HHS had released several minors to the traffickers.** The committee said the case was due to policies and procedures that were “inadequate to protect the children in the agency’s care.” > > After unaccompanied minors arrive in the United States, often to reunite with family members or to flee violence or poverty in their home countries, they are typically transferred from border patrol or customs officers to the custody of HHS, which often reunites the minors with a relative or another sponsor. _The department is supposed to place check-in phone calls 30 days after a minor’s placement, but during the hearing, Wagner acknowledged gaps in that system._ > > Between October and December 2017, he said, the agency was unable to locate almost 1,500 out of the 7,635 minors that it attempted to reach — or about 19 percent. \*\*Over two dozen had run away, according to Wagner, who said the agency did not have the capacity to track them down. > \*\* > \*\*Sponsors are meant to ensure that minors show up at their immigration hearings. \*\*Sen. Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) pressed Wagner on why more than half of unaccompanied minors in 2017 did not show up to their immigration hearings. When asked how HHS tracks the missing children, Wagner said that finding out whether children have attended their immigration hearing is not part of its protocol. > > “We do not know who is showing up and who isn’t,” he said. “We don’t know those kids … We don’t follow up to ensure they go to the hearing.” The other issue is that HHS didn’t have capacity to deal with these children before and now the scope of separating families has expanded. HHS definitely can’t keep up. We are separating families that _need_ stability. There’s another longer topic that talks about Trump and Sessions treating gang members and _victims_ of the gangs as the same. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/38 "2018-05-29T06:41:37Z")
> [@pool](#): > > I’m not a big fan of illegal immigration or even granting asylum to huge numbers of people because I just don’t think in the long-term we will be able to support all of them, and I don’t think it’s really our job to take care of the rest of the world. They can work, and they’ve already shown the brains and initiative needed to get there. You won’t be supporting them: like every other person who’s willing and able, they will be doing their best to support the dead-wood part of their new society. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/39 "2018-05-29T11:07:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > There are three different concerns in play: > > (1) Unaccompanied minors who entered the country illegally, were apprehended, and then placed with a sponsor can in some cases not be found by ORR. This is generally a good thing, in my opinion. > > (2) Minors who entered the country illegally with their adult guardian(s), were apprehended, and then deliberately separated from their adult guardian(s). This is a bad thing. > > (3) Conflating the two cases – talking about forcibly separated children who are now “lost,” by ORR, for example, as has been done in this thread – is a stupid thing that shows no understanding of the issues but an intense desire to signal how virtuous you are. Shut up. From what I understand, the problem is not simply (1) or (2), it’s that the government was already “losing” kids with the old policy. The 1.4k “missing” kids were all born of the old policy. Now, thanks to the new policy, the same department has to handle a lot more kids, and it’s far more disturbing when those kids get “lost”. The system is not equipped to handle the policy humanely. Take the following hypothetical: a family crosses the border looking for asylum. ICE, following the new Trump policy, separates the children from their parents, and ORR places them in temporary homes. Then, the asylum application is denied, and the parents are sent back to central America, but ORR _can’t find the kids_! The result of this is patently horrifying, and I hope you’d agree as someone who I know values “family values” and is quite religious. Is the above hypothetical possible? Now, I’d like to hope that this is impossible with the new policy, but I have seen absolutely nothing to indicate that that’s the case, and it would be quite out of character for Trump or Sessions to care about the well-being of illegal immigrants, even if “well-being” in this case means “not being fucking monsters”. After all, they pardoned Joe Arpaio. I think it’s far more likely that this is going to happen on a far larger scale, and that things are going to go absolutely fucking haywire. Remember, they lost track of 1 in 5 children _before_ this new policy made it likely for the number of children to increase drastically. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2018, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/40 "2018-05-29T13:13:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the vast majority of cases, the host family is either a parent, or another close relative. Of the children released to sponsors, for FY2017, 49 percent to parents, 41 percent to close relatives, and 10 percent to other-than-close relatives or non-relatives. I’m less confident thatn you, I guess, of the agencies ability to determine who is and who is not a “close relative”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965.md?page=3)