# Partying like it's 1859: let's break up families just like we did in the slave days! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 28, 2018, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965 "2018-05-28T14:27:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/61 "2018-06-01T00:46:48Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > How did the Western Roman Empire find unrestricted immigration? Did letting in all those Visigoths work out well for them economically? In the 90s German historian Alexander Dermandt enumerated some 210 putative causes for the fall of the Empire ; and more have been posited since. Off the top of my head : political turmoil and instability ; military over-expansion (which is bad when your economy is heavily based on tribute and plunder from conquests) ; patronage/factionalism within the military ; over-reliance on slave labour & attendant lack of paying jobs for the urban poor ; disruption of the food supply (see: political turmoil) ; debased currency ; completely mismatched imperial income/spending ; crumbling infrastructure ; repeated civil wars ; travel made unsafe due to banditry (see: lack of jobs & war veterans) ; epidemics… the so-called barbarian invasions might have eventually tipped the cart over, but it was rotting long before they ever came. But sure, it was all because of damn dirty immigrants. And undocumented immigration from Mexico is 1:1 equivalent with Attila’s ride-by, obviously :rolleyes:. BTW, Rome only _became_ an Empire because it managed to assimilate and include so many people and cultures in the first place (that is, in fact, the definition of an empire). It often had to be dragged kicking and screaming into doing so because nativists are a plague everywhere, but hey. Who do you think fought in the Legions ? Who patrolled the borders, built the aqueducts ? Answer : North Africans, Gauls, Sarmatians, Dacians, Egyptians, Greeks… Hell, some Roman \*Emperors \*were [North African](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severan_dynasty) ! ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/62 "2018-06-01T02:03:17Z")
Settle down, fellas. **Kobal** said there wasn’t a single case in the history of the world where letting in a vast number of immigrants unchecked, no matter the conditions, did anything other than improve the nation in question. I’m pretty sure it’s not a questions Emperor Valens damaged the Empire greatly by allowing the Visigoths to settle inside his borders. Rome achieved greatness by expanding, sure, but it rarely worked out well for them in the long run by letting in great swaths of people who considered themselves foreigners. Attila’s “ride-by” has a greater similarity to the US fostering autocratic governments in Central America than it does with the resultant net immigration in both cases. Not that I’m trying to suggest that Emperor Donald is going to die in battle leading his armies against the brown hordes on the plains of Arizona. ---
**Author:** ![xcalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/5daacb/32.png) [@xcalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xcalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/63 "2018-06-01T04:05:44Z")
I think it is disingenuous to write that it’s trumps policy to separate children from their families. Trumps policy change was to prosecute illegal crossings whereas the previous mode was to look the other way (some of the time). When you arrest adults they are put in adult jail, their kids aren’t allowed to come with, nor would you want them to be. This separation would happen whether these were immigrants or fifth generation citizens. This might seem like nitpicking to some, but it is important. If you want to be taken seriously and have objective, logical discussion, don’t play word games to impart intentional emotional bias. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/64 "2018-06-01T08:29:47Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > Settle down, fellas. **Kobal** said there wasn’t a single case in the history of the world where letting in a vast number of immigrants unchecked, no matter the conditions, did anything other than improve the nation in question. I’m pretty sure **it’s not a questions Emperor Valens damaged the Empire greatly by allowing the Visigoths to settle inside his borders**. Yes and no. I mean, he did what other princes had done before, and it had worked out fine for them - with the Franks, the Vandals, the Alans (and much later would work with the Vikings in Northern France)… The truth is, nobody really knows why the Visigoths broke off the accords between them and Rome. But, again, it’s not like they acted in a vacuum. > [@](#): > > Rome achieved greatness by expanding, sure, but it rarely worked out well for them in the long run by letting in great swaths of people who considered themselves foreigners. In the long run Rome built a state that conquered or purchased the (then, by them) known world and lasted some 2300 years (from Romulus and Remus to Manzikert) and built stuff that is still in use today. I think, on the whole, they did kind of OK for a bunch of iron age idiots living out of a swamp :D. > [@](#): > > Attila’s “ride-by” has a greater similarity to the US fostering autocratic governments in Central America than it does with the resultant net immigration in both cases. I… whut ? > [@](#): > > Not that I’m trying to suggest that Emperor Donald is going to die in battle leading his armies against the brown hordes on the plains of Arizona. More’s the pity. But then I don’t think he could pull off a muscle cuirass. …And now I really want to see that, damn it all. ---
**Author:** ![Monimonika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85e7bf/32.png) [@Monimonika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monimonika)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/65 "2018-06-01T10:43:12Z")
> [@andros](#): > > There is no such filibuster, as there is no such bill. Because for all their bullshit yapping, House Republicans will never pass one. It’s patently not the dems getting in the way. > > I like **RTFirefly** ’s wit the way I like my romantic partners: dry and lacerating. > . Thanks, I didn’t catch what RTFireFly’s sarcasm was referring to. Now I can stop futilely trying to “be balanced” on the issue. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/66 "2018-06-01T14:37:37Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Too many of us would prefer that Jesus Mexican stays in Mexico processing cocaine. But some of them, I assume, are good people. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/67 "2018-06-01T18:59:08Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yes and no. I mean, he did what other princes had done before, and it had worked out fine for them - with the Franks, the Vandals, the Alans (and much later would work with the Vikings in Northern France)… The truth is, nobody really knows why the Visigoths broke off the accords between them and Rome. But, again, it’s not like they acted in a vacuum. I would say letting the Vikings settle in Normandy was another example of inviting foreigners in and not having it work out in the long run. I suppose it worked out fairly decently for the few centuries, but that Hundred Year’s War was a real pisser for the French monarchy. The Vandals and the Alans did much the same as the Visigoths, except were less successful in their confrontations with all the other barbarian groups being run off by the Huns. The Franks weren’t so much let in as they were ignored. > [@](#): > > In the long run Rome built a state that conquered or purchased the (then, by them) known world and lasted some 2300 years (from Romulus and Remus to Manzikert) and built stuff that is still in use today. > > I think, on the whole, they did kind of OK for a bunch of iron age idiots living out of a swamp :D. I wouldn’t argue the success of the Roman Empire. But their greatest accomplishments were done by their local citizens, and their military was only reliable and effective when manned by Latins. A constant refrain of both Roman commentators and later historians was that the legions became regional powerbases for petty tyrants as soon as they were debased by the various other members of the late Republic/Empire. It’s fairly obvious that this was a correlative effect, not a causative one, but it still bears mentioning in the context of “vast immigration is always a great thing.” > [@](#): > > I… whut ? Sorry, I was reaching there. Both were causes of mass immigration into a stable state which had thought they were controlling the cause of problems. > [@](#): > > More’s the pity. But then I don’t think he could pull off a muscle cuirass. > …And now I really want to see that, damn it all. …this is one of those mental images you just can’t unthink, isn’t it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2018, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/68 "2018-06-05T21:24:37Z")
> [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](#): > > I would say letting the Vikings settle in Normandy was another example of inviting foreigners in and not having it work out in the long run. I suppose it worked out fairly decently for the few centuries, but that Hundred Year’s War was a real pisser for the French monarchy. But that was some 400 years down the line. It wasn’t the same people fighting, it wasn’t even the same monarchy. \*And \*we won, dammit ! And for those 400 years, the descendants of Rollo did exactly what they’d signed up for : fought off the Vikings, even conquered half of them. And paid hommage and tribute to the King (well, until they had their own island and kind of let that second part slide). Besides that, and much like the Visigoths, it’s not like it was immigration, not as such. More a case of “So hey, here’s the thing : we happen to have all these sharp, sharp swords ; mind if we settle here and then we won’t murder the fucking lot of you weaklings in your sleep ? Pretty please ?”. When Latinos or Syrian refugees come in guns blazing, and _en masse_ instead of in a trickle, then the situations might be comparable. > [@](#): > > I wouldn’t argue the success of the Roman Empire. But their greatest accomplishments were done by their local citizens, and their military was only reliable and effective when manned by Latins. Hard disagree there. For one thing, their old timers would scoff at you calling Latins “local citizens”, on account of the rest of their Italian allies having to fight [a goddamn war](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_War_(91%E2%80%9388_BC)) to gain Roman citizenship in the first place. For “true Romans”, Italians were themselves a bunch of unwashed foreigners. For another, Rome would never, ever in the history of ever have gotten all that land without the _foederati_. Let alone hold it, because “military service in exchange for citizenship and some land” kept quite a few warrior tribes tentatively peaceful (mostly not ; but those who took the deal typically fought against those who wanted their independance, so it worked in a dysfunctional bloody sort of way) instead of at Rome’s throat. As for accomplishments, well, I’m not sure what you put in that category ; but the typical feats of “Roman engineering” were in 95% of cases built by the Legions stationed in the provinces whenever they had nobody it was overly pressing to smash - and those legions were a bunch of non-Latins by and large, because by that time nobody in Italy needed citizenship any more and the citizen-soldier thing was long past. Only the core of the troops and the officers were typically “Romans from Rome”. > [@](#): > > A constant refrain of both Roman commentators and later historians was that the legions became regional powerbases for petty tyrants as soon as they were debased by the various other members of the late Republic/Empire. Yes, but in truth that would have happened were the legions made up of just about anybody. These commentators (particularly the Antique ones, but Gibbon had his head up his British arse too) didn’t grok that what _really_ had changed the paradigm was letting Octavian declare himself totally\_not\_King on the back of being acclaimed by his troops. To be fair, it’s not like they had a real choice, he happened to have said troops camped right outside the city and he knew where the Senators lived ;). But it’s that precedent (really the one set before by Sulla, but Octavian becoming Caesar Augustus was the culmination of that new paradigm) that really screwed the Roman state’s political cohesion and turned every two-bit centurion into a would-be Emperor down the line. By the way, Sulla’s troops ? Mostly poor Italians. One could go further and opine that it’s really Marius’ decision to let the poor and the unemployed into the Legion in the first place that started it all. Prior to the reforms only the landed and them as could provide their own gear could enlist. Which made the Legion revolt-proof : they were the ones in power already, the ones who had the money and the land, who were they going to seize it \*from \*? After the reform, with weapons provided by the State and the whole “20 years of fighting and then we’ll set you up in a farm in some colonia somewhere” deal, when the soldiers had no more “skin in the Roman game” as it were, the army as a whole became a lot more troublesome because the State now _had_ to get them that farm. Which meant having to be on a constant state of conquest, else the army of have nots would grumble and eventually march on Rome to get their due from the haves. Hence, the Empire. But as noted, as far as wrong decisions go it had a decent run before biting them in the arse one time too many :). > [@](#): > > Sorry, I was reaching there. Both were causes of mass immigration into a stable state which had thought they were controlling the cause of problems. I’m not sure to which extent the Western Empire ever thought it controlled the Mongol state, or even were aware of its existence when the Vandals and Goths showed up ? EDIT : WTF is up with the board lately, why does it add all these empty lines whenever I hit the enter key just the once ? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/69 "2018-06-20T13:35:47Z")
Truly, irony is dead: [Cops Plead “Allow ICE Employees To Go Home To Their Families” After Protesters Blockade Prison In Portland](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/cops-plead-allow-ice-employees-go-home-families-protesters-blockade-prison-portland/) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/70 "2018-06-20T14:03:03Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Truly, irony is dead: > > [Cops Plead “Allow ICE Employees To Go Home To Their Families” After Protesters Blockade Prison In Portland](https://www.rawstory.com/2018/06/cops-plead-allow-ice-employees-go-home-families-protesters-blockade-prison-portland/) Awesome! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/71 "2018-06-20T14:32:32Z")
> [@xcalibre](#): > > I think it is disingenuous to write that it’s trumps policy to separate children from their families. Trumps policy change was to prosecute illegal crossings whereas the previous mode was to look the other way (some of the time). When you arrest adults they are put in adult jail, their kids aren’t allowed to come with, nor would you want them to be. This separation would happen whether these were immigrants or fifth generation citizens. > > This might seem like nitpicking to some, but it is important. If you want to be taken seriously and have objective, logical discussion, don’t play word games to impart intentional emotional bias. You lose the argument when you begin rationalizing concentration camps for children. Stop it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/72 "2018-06-20T17:46:00Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > You lose the argument when you begin rationalizing concentration camps for children. Stop it. I hope they do, at least. I’ve seen a lot of spin on this one. All people want is a fig leaf they can use to claim they don’t support this. And there are garbage people out there trying to give it to them. They seem less extreme than the people actually arguing this is the right and proper thing–who also do exist, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2018, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/73 "2018-06-20T22:35:20Z")
BTW, to save money ICE is buying war surplus uniforms for its officers. [An example.](https://www.thinglink.com/scene/911301270524919809) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/74 "2018-06-22T13:45:54Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Definitely. I’m preparing a huge stockpile of laughs for whoever complains about the lack of bipartisanship from now on, or anyone who says “well, look at how bad President SoAndSoAfterTrump is”. It’s difficult to even conceive of a future comparison worthy of bringing up. Well, plenty of people forgot that the president before Obama started an unnecessary war that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, untold atrocities and generally horrible crap. Separating kids from their parents is horrible but so is starting an unnecessary war. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/75 "2018-06-22T13:52:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Well, plenty of people forgot that the president before Obama started an unnecessary war that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths, untold atrocities and generally horrible crap. > > Separating kids from their parents is horrible but so is starting an unnecessary war. Yeah? But what about that time Obama wore a tan suit? That’s just as bad as stupid wars and child/parent separations! ---
**Author:** ![fervour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@fervour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fervour)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/76 "2018-06-22T13:53:22Z")
Call your senators and representative. It’s all we have-----unless you have a better idea. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/77 "2018-06-22T15:49:21Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Just to remind everyone, improper entry into the US is a misdemeanor. > > Can you think of any other misdemeanor that would warrant separating kids from their parents? I can’t either. > > Our attorney general believes that separating families will deter folks from crossing the border illegally. But what if your child was taken from you and lost in the system? Wouldn’t that motivate you to try to come back into the country to look for them? There are some forms of misdemeanor child abuse and child neglect that could result in separation. But that is all “in the best interests of the child” I don’t know how you can make an argument that all of these separations are in the best interests of the child. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2018, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/78 "2018-06-22T20:22:23Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are some forms of misdemeanor child abuse and child neglect that could result in separation. But that is all “in the best interests of the child” I don’t know how you can make an argument that all of these separations are in the best interests of the child. You mustn’t frequent right wing FB pages. I \*\*swear \*\*I am not making this up, I’ve seen such brilliant examples of cognitive dissonance as “these people are taking their children along with them while they’re committing a crime, which is child abuse ergo the children are better off taken away”. Like they’re bringing their kids to a violent bank heist or something. Unfuckingbelievable. Politics gives people brain spiders, I swear to og. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/79 "2018-06-28T12:06:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You mustn’t frequent right wing FB pages. I \*\*swear \*\*I am not making this up, I’ve seen such brilliant examples of cognitive dissonance as “these people are taking their children along with them while they’re committing a crime, which is child abuse ergo the children are better off taken away”. Like they’re bringing their kids to a violent bank heist or something. Unfuckingbelievable. > Politics gives people brain spiders, I swear to og. I haven’t found a right wing FB page that isn’t a total waste of time. I content myself to frequenting this left wing message board where the signal noise ratio is about 50/50. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965/80 "2018-06-28T13:27:21Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Support them ? DUDE. You’re living in the richest, most spendiferous, most wasteful country on Og’s green Earth. There’s 300 million of you (that’s less than half a Europe) sitting on 10M square kms (that’s two Europes). I think there’s a smidge of room if y’all’d squeeze a little :rolleyes: > > But more importantly : no country, clan, group, tribe or dynasty in the history of the world has done worse with more people in it. Not once, not ever. Immigration, no matter where from or in what conditions, is always a strict positive in the long run. And I’m not talking about cultural this and that or a rich tapestry of multiethnic yaddayadda. I’m not being all liberal about it. Nobody is asking you to _support_ them. They support themselves, thankyouverymuch. And you ! People, even poor people who come from “shithole countries” to “steal our jobs” pay taxes, direct and local even when they don’t earn enough to pay actual taxes. They create jobs as well, because they need homes, police, firefighters, trucks made to put the mobile taco grill in ; and so on and so forth. They serve in the armed forces. They build shit. They’re always, always, ALWAYS a net positive on the economy. Everywhere, throughout history. > Plus down the line they create fusion cuisine, and that’s awesome. Viet-Cajun shrimp in New Orleans ? I so, SO wanna taste that shit before I die. > > Furthermore, it’s all nice and all to think you (and I) can loot the rest of the world for all it’s worth, then turn around and declare it’s not our problem, not our job to take care of them ; but the world has been growing smaller and smaller ever since man found you could sit on top of a horse and the stupid animal wouldn’t kill you in return. At some point, “Around The World in 80 days” used to be far fetched fiction. Today I can fly to the antipodes in less than one day. And there’s no such thing as a border as seen from space. Your country and mine have, over the centuries, looted and pillaged the rest of the world for our benefit. We have created a hostile, unequal, unfair socio-economic system which we are dead set on perpetuating, by force if need be. We have colonized and strong armed, we have cliented and banana republiced, we have subjugated and corrupted, we have influenced and revolutionized. Your country specifically has, in recent years, blown two countries to very fine smithereens, fostered a death cult that has spread misery and desolation beyond imagination, to say nothing on the effect you (and we) have had on the climate (and it’s not nothing, and the first waves of climate refugees are already on their way). > > Now I ask you this : would you rather Joe Syrian be slinging burgers at Mickey Dees or driving a cab ; or working on detonators and homemade explosives because he’s seen one too many members of his family get blown up by drones ? Would you rather his kids get bad grades in our decaying school systems, or in a madrassa ? Would you rather Jesus Mexican pick your lettuce for 10 cents on the dollar, or process cocaine back home ? Would you rather they all learn about democracy and the rule of law living among us, or would you rather they support yet another wave of violent strongmen, religious nutters, corrupt kleptocrats and so on ? > > The bottomline is : you _have_ to care about the rest of the world. Because brother, it cares about you. Not in a good way. And what goes around, comes around. Maybe the best, most articulate post I’ve seen on the subject. Nice work! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/partying-like-its-1859-lets-break-up-families-just-like-we-did-in-the-slave-days/814965.md?page=5)