# Passenger plane crashes near DC-area’s Reagan Airport {Jan 29, 2025} **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [January 30, 2025, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602 "2025-01-30T03:13:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/83 "2025-01-30T20:37:58Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > One the one hand it feels a bit less than optimal that current/future ATCs may only have a high school diploma. OTOH, I believe there is a serious shortage of controllers currently and eliminating the college degree pre-requisite might be necessary in order to recruit enough ATCs. I can’t think of a single college class that prepares one to be an ATC. Nothing you learn there will help. There is only the targeted ATC training. It’s like saying that a law degree might make you a better plumber. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/84 "2025-01-30T20:51:38Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > > [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > > > One the one hand it feels a bit less than optimal that current/future ATCs may only have a high school diploma. OTOH, I believe there is a serious shortage of controllers currently and eliminating the college degree pre-requisite might be necessary in order to recruit enough ATCs. > > I can’t think of a single college class that prepares one to be an ATC. Nothing you learn there will help. There is only the targeted ATC training. It’s like saying that a law degree might make you a better plumber. Right. ATC is a MOS in the military. No degree required, it’s a job for enlisted personnel. I’m not sure why a civilian should have a degree but a soldier/airman doesn’t need it. Just as long as the training is complete. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/85 "2025-01-30T20:56:44Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Right. ATC is a MOS in the military. No degree required, it’s a job for enlisted personnel. I’m not sure why a civilian should have a degree but a soldier/airman doesn’t need it. Just as long as the training is complete. In my 30 years I am saddened by the amount of degree inflation I have seen. It’s probably part of the reason so many young people feel they can’t get ahead. At a past employer we had a laboratory assistant role. The job was clean glassware, order and stock supplies (including special request reagents), schedule maintenance on equipment, stuff like that. The job was held by an older woman who literally came to the company from High School. When she left they INSISTED (against all my urging) to make it a science degree required. Yeah, someone who just spent 4 years getting a BS in chemistry wants to wash dishes. And the person who would be THRILLED to have that job won’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![2gigch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/2gigch1/32/3313_2.png) [@2gigch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2gigch1)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/86 "2025-01-30T21:16:09Z")
I’m here at DCA running camera for my station today. One point of note - the majority of flights land and take off on Runway 1 / Runway 19, an effectively north south runway. The accident occurred as the flight was diverted to land on Runway 33, an angled runway that is much less used. This may be why the helicopter pilot was fooled - he was likely unaccustomed to seeing planes coming in from that angle. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/87 "2025-01-30T21:21:42Z")
> Staffing at the air traffic control tower at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” according to an internal preliminary Federal Aviation Administration safety report about the collision that was reviewed by The New York Times. > > The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one. > **[D.C. Plane Crash Live Updates: No Survivors After American Airlines Jet and...](https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/01/29/us/plane-crash-washington-dc#air-traffic-control-staffing-plane-crash)** > > An internal report suggested that the controller on duty the night of the accident was doing a job usually handled by two people. The collision between a jet and an Army helicopter killed 67 people, whose bodies were being recovered from the icy... I read elsewhere than Reagan National only had 19 controllers in total, while the FAA plan and union agreement was for 30. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/88 "2025-01-30T21:29:07Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > Great post. Thanks for the detailed and relevant information. Thanks, & let me clarify one thing > [@Spiderman](#): > > That vehicle there means they were following Incident Command System You _absolutely don’t_ need a dedicated vehicle to follow ICS; it’s just if they are there you know it’s a bigger incident. The first person on scene is the first Incident Commander; technically, even a civilian who only calls 911 - they’re calling for more & appropriate resources. Command can & does get handed off as more & higher (FD lieutenant → captain → battalion chief → etc) resources arrive on scene. In a longer incident, you might brief your replacement & go home at the end of your shift. The Lt might go from in charges of the scene to in charge of just the boats, to in charge of just the shoreline searches (with someone else taking the debris field searches) as additional resources get to the scene ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/89 "2025-01-30T21:37:20Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No. That would be unsafe. The fuselage is suspended below the rotor system. Technically not 100% true. RC helis can fly inverted. There’s probably no reason a fully articulated strut mounted rotorhead design, like a MD500, couldn’t _theoretically_ fly inverted (ignoring the fuel system and oiling). But, even if you wanted to, the 500 collective doesn’t have the travel range. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/90 "2025-01-30T21:41:09Z")
I’ll just leave this here. I know this is not a political thread but this is on topic: > **[Donald Trump blames Obama, Biden, DEI for DC Plane Crash](https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trump-obama-biden-dei-dc-plane-crash-2023610)** > > It was Trump's first press conference after a plane carrying 60 passengers and four crew members collided with an Army helicopter. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/91 "2025-01-30T21:47:26Z")
One of my students lives on Bolling AFB (her dad is in the Coast Guard) and she heard it. She was pretty shaken up. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/92 "2025-01-30T22:00:59Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Technically not 100% true. RC helis can fly inverted. > > There’s probably no reason a fully articulated strut mounted rotorhead design, like a MD500, couldn’t _theoretically_ fly inverted… I’m not familiar with r/c helicopters, but I do know they have different rotor designs. So I can’t talk about models. I’ve flown Robinson R22s and Schweizer 300CBis, both of which have low-inertia rotor systems atop masts. The R22 has a semi-rigid (‘teetering’) rotor system, and the Schweizer has a fully-articulated rotor system. A semi-rigid rotor system has a ‘feathering hinges’ for changing the pitch, and the blades lead and lag, and flap, as a unit. A fully-articulated rotor system has the feathering hinges, flapping hinges, and lead-lag hinges. Another kind of rotor system is the rigid rotor system. In this system, the blades are attached to the rotor hub without flapping or lead-lag hinges. Flapping and lead-lag are accomplished by the flexibility of the blades themselves. I have never flown a helicopter with a ridig rotor system, but I know they have a quicker control response than hinged systems. If a radio-controlled model helicopter can fly inverted, then yeah; theoretically a human-carrying helicopter could be made to too. But I am unaware of any. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/93 "2025-01-30T22:02:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’ll just leave this here. I know this is not a political thread but this is on topic: For anyone wanting to discuss this headline, I’d like to point out the P&E thread devoted to it: > [@"Trump blames Biden's D.E.I. policy for air crash" (NY headline)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/trump-blames-bidens-d-e-i-policy-for-air-crash-ny-headline/1013632/): > > What the hell does this mean? Why does Trump mention Biden and D.E.I. in the context of this accident? Would the accident have been avoided if D.E.I. didn’t exist? Or is Trump just mean and has lost it? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/94 "2025-01-30T22:06:14Z")
Thanks…I am sorry I did not see that before posting. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/95 "2025-01-30T22:10:25Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am sorry I did not see that before posting. I didn’t mean that to rebuke you, just wanted to let people know. 🙂 And you’re welcome! ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/96 "2025-01-30T22:31:49Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I can’t think of a single college class that prepares one to be an ATC. Nothing you learn there will help. There is only the targeted ATC training. It’s like saying that a law degree might make you a better plumber. I was curious about this since there are maritime and aeronautics schools. I know one young man attending Florida Tech and this is from their [website](https://www.fit.edu/aeronautics/academics-and-learning/areas-of-study/air-traffic-control-and-dispatch/): > **Air Traffic Collegiate Training Initiative (AT-CTI)** > > The Federal Aviation Administration has partnered with select institutions around the United States to promote aviation for the next generation. [AT-CTI](https://www.faa.gov/jobs/students/schools) graduates are equipped with knowledge and skills to pursue a broader range of employment opportunities around the aviation industry. Graduates are eligible to bypass the Air Traffic Basics Course, which is usually covered during the first five weeks of qualification training at the FAA Academy in Oklahoma City. Students must successfully complete all required training at the FAA Academy to continue employment with FAA. > > The College of Aeronautics offers an Air Traffic Control (ATC) Applied Associate degree in conjunction with all of its bachelor’s degree programs. The ATC degree meets the requirements of the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) AT-CTI program and is FAA approved. > > **How do I become an Air Traffic Controller?** > > - Graduate from an FAA approved AT-CTI program, or have three year’s work experience, or a combination of work experience and education > - Receive an official school recommendation > - Be a United States citizen > - Be hired by 31 years old (except experienced controllers, be hired by 35th birthday) > - Pass a medical examination > - Pass a security investigation > - Achieve a score of at least 70 on the FAA pre-employment test > - Speak English clearly enough for others to understand you on communications equipment I don’t really know anything about becoming an ATC but my reading of this indicates one would have a headstart at the FAA training academy. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/97 "2025-01-30T22:54:12Z")
> The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs typically are assigned to two controllers, rather than one. I’ve seen other reports corroborating this, basically just one controller on duty that night. Regardless of where the ultimate fault lies, the two people I’d hate to be right now are that controller, and the manager of that ATC operation. And also regardless of final determinations of fault, It’s almost impossible to see how the ATC guy or his management could be exonerated. It was a mid-air collision. Isn’t preventing those pretty much the definition of what ATC does? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/98 "2025-01-30T23:10:31Z")
No. In terms of the three people: the controller, the jet pilot and the helicopter pilot it was clearly the helicopter pilot at fault: the controller warned him about the jet but the helicopter pilot said he had the plane under visual observation. But more broadly the blame lies with the FAA, past administrations, Congress, and the Department of Defense. The aviation system is supposed to be designed to have multiple checks: so if someone makes a mistake there are other processes and individuals to catch it. The U.S. has made the decision to trust to luck iinstead. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/99 "2025-01-30T23:13:18Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > And also regardless of final determinations of fault, It’s almost impossible to see how the ATC guy or his management could be exonerated. It was a mid-air collision. Isn’t preventing those pretty much the definition of what ATC does? The UH-60 pilot acknowledged he had the RJ in sight. That takes the onus off the controller. The UH-60 may have had a different plane in mind. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/100 "2025-01-30T23:16:10Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > No. In terms of the three people: the controller, the jet pilot and the helicopter pilot it was clearly the helicopter pilot at fault: the controller warned him about the jet but the helicopter pilot said he had the plane under visual observation. There is no official determination of fault and it may be a while before we get that, if ever. My speculation (and that’s all it is) is that ATC sees on their radar where all the aircraft are and where they’re heading. It would be very surprising if evidence of the imminent collision wasn’t clearly right there on the radar screen, but just not noticed. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2025, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/101 "2025-01-30T23:57:27Z")
Thanks for that comprehensive reply to my wondering, @Spiderman. It’s illuminating and much appreciated. ETA: Just came across this item from a Bloomberg email: > Control tower staffing at Ronald Reagan National Airport was “not normal” on the night of [the collision](https://links.message.bloomberg.com/u/click?_t=f574328d4d0c4c359b90d8e49b10e21d&_m=c44fdfff9a7843de93e70ea2d0cdafb5&_e=_5FO6Y7zZYEY2pJ2PTfsRbjqQsatK1DtM8rMkxhi5q0a-tJ0CWZUM8KIdSwutbXuNio1nzyVa_mlaPUX6Cr05s7wT9q6IEBmgcc-FljqAPFBrmccvj_YDl_5VM2SdlH622S8TIcAPXUU2H6zbZ_Q-keYJTQbVNYAGrfkuMzVad1L6LPb7LDop558Ykgf26JgnYKhNyX0kVxbYR_jvMu-9JQJZCeLgpy_zGIzJBy_BNSNBSr_gRNL4wIZjGYsGKs_3RnJC8e9AU5gUWZucDdFxKIptUIIE9WPzHV8kP9ULzibP5wt6OUvJYk0slGh7cWz1jvrS6nsrt8p0qzCD7rzSg%3D%3D) that killed 67 people, the _[Associated Press](https://links.message.bloomberg.com/u/click?_t=f574328d4d0c4c359b90d8e49b10e21d&_m=c44fdfff9a7843de93e70ea2d0cdafb5&_e=_5FO6Y7zZYEY2pJ2PTfsRfWos0XgKzaGzmKd0nmU8sRgjegdFOxWjylbTPv28blw3e5RB37wsNawkvS1WPl7FFrlmqu5X7PxR3Dt1UzMJ-GQms__UJ69AjIIeDN9TCQvDbuLOhKKJ1sulFQI1V47EHTspvd_e3VbxaVRZnZRViqP_M2IVtEgNFKLkPsghedO1u_rwPmGOtjn-J9ZCYOU-WBxyBgZ94HChyarg6FIZh9giwPs7cKVDos2I628nEW0woL38tf_aWlh9nCjOycQO2FWqlQ1OLAGKvC5A8oPdNxQTTO1wkHGHk07QtrB714rLrOjidEO_iSdi7cNuOXx8mqJ3D2Vgzc_PyLDksUBnSmFQIyOBagg-9U6XePb4tsJFHZnqrd5HsuZdHA36caCzgH364gH8BEHPPvQLdOyKAJ6lPBiuVpdgMzLyH_N_ES1qN0YfvEbeyjPkQ--geUGL8PaY7b7XZNPCqv9OGQZK2ISLa8dVD35oM3gZc_iBybF)_ said, citing a report from the Federal Aviation Administration\*.\* The _[New York Times](https://links.message.bloomberg.com/u/click?_t=f574328d4d0c4c359b90d8e49b10e21d&_m=c44fdfff9a7843de93e70ea2d0cdafb5&_e=_5FO6Y7zZYEY2pJ2PTfsRUzBJ69SdorQrunj-_vkRHW0x96B9qIFKwXCJz_ON_4MM7Tj9vqihH0EmayOlXRR9nwnXyfvEZIt0-dTNP1YAFpSIl-eOIb-C94tFQo6wT7S6BY3JOb3kz8pZNHRJ-RjgEiMzjZt-M_hqzElcR6nsq85qYSFQNtkwg4KmxROPhuNhbPvaSGipzrGIVgStSFxRyUFovRr2lISIK0xqaBu6cC7RyV5was29R1BrI5PeyKoMqArzB0oXCcNFzdk5ChMrjXz7pGBLCsChXCTxb6WYLFjANXTKNv5eUUgYl_eNW5cAEFW3tcaC8_kQvVM2gLwpE67uy6BW0Ji8K3nXr5TbHPLsdq3lS7jiKzCCanuv0VO5CtDd4RtUcUmau1BZDVDxsON0dDPDWFCVDx29dKhm3ZtQ6onOnpjv-ncA3MWol9W)_ reported that a controller on duty Wednesday night was doing the job of two employees when a passenger jet hit a military helicopter, ETA 2 – ninja’d ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2025, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602/102 "2025-01-31T00:13:44Z")
I don’t see why the helicopter crew was on a training mission in this area. The DCA airport is not a designated MOA (Military Operations Area). If they need to train pilots to fly then this is not the place. If they need to train for the specific corridor Then a simulator would be a better place to introduce dangerous traffic obstacles or war scenarios. My guess is that the helicopter crew heard what they wanted to hear out of habit for the expected runway . They’re looking for a plane straight ahead and farther away. They’re cued up to ensure they navigate behind it when it passes. The Traffic controller could have clarified the instructions by adding the words “traffic is a 1/4 mile on your left for short final runway 1”. But that’s a guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passenger-plane-crashes-near-dc-area-s-reagan-airport-jan-29-2025/1013602.md?page=6)