# Passover ethics question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 13, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046 "2014-04-13T22:02:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/21 "2014-04-14T18:43:01Z")
For those of us Gentiles who beg every year to be invited to Seder and yet never get an offer, why is kosher for Passover different than kosher and why would kosher for Passover not be acceptable for Passover? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/22 "2014-04-14T18:50:40Z")
Kosher-for-Passover means you observe certain traditional rules for eating during Passover – it means no leavening agents, no grain (except that which has been made into matzoh in the correct procedure), and, depending on your tradition, no beans. It’s a completely separate set of rules, having nothing to do with day to day kosherness. Lots of fairly secular Jews observe K-f-P but not ordinary kosher. Kosher for Passover IS acceptable for Passover. But OP’s mom used noodles which are _not_ K-f-P. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/23 "2014-04-14T18:57:03Z")
Saint Cad: > [@](#): > > For those of us Gentiles who beg every year to be invited to Seder and yet never get an offer, why is kosher for Passover different than kosher It must contain no leavened grain or grain by-products (specifically, wheat, barley, rye, oats or spelt, those are the only plants considered “grains” in Jewish law), and for Ashkenazic (Eastern European) Jews, also certain other grains and legumes that have historically been either used in a grain-like manner or which have, historically, been routinely stored together with forbidden (if not protected from leavening) grains (e.g., rice, millet, corn, peas, beans, peanuts). > [@](#): > > and why would kosher for Passover not be acceptable for Passover? Some people have hang-ups about foods which were not available in a Kosher-for-Passover version in their youth. The OP is one, my mother-in-law is similar. New production techniques and/or recipes have expanded the list of what items that are normally grain-based can be made without forbidden (for Passover) substances, but not everybody feels comfortable deviating from “tradition.” ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/24 "2014-04-14T19:12:45Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > For those of us Gentiles who beg every year to be invited to Seder and yet never get an offer, why is kosher for Passover different than kosher and why would kosher for Passover not be acceptable for Passover? It has ketchup on it. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/25 "2014-04-14T19:20:56Z")
For some of us **cm** it is not “hang-ups”; it is that we don’t particularly care about what is officially allowed as much as we care about the symbolic meaning that we, as individuals, attach to the behavior. Eating something that is functionally leavened bread (it just took more processing effort and time to get it there) grates against the symbolic value of the choice to us. You follow the rule for the sake of the rule; fine that. I get it. I do that which has symbolic meaning to me because that is what has meaning to me, not out of any hang-up. Rule, schmuel. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/26 "2014-04-14T19:47:35Z")
One thing I should have made clearer in my above post is that my objections to things like “Passover cake” and noodle kugel apply primarily to what is served at the actual seder. I wasn’t even thinking of the rest of the week. The whole seder is a ritual of symbolic foods and gestures, so it seems particularly wrongheaded to serve the Jewish equivalent of Tofurkey immediately after eating bitter herbs and charoseth. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Presumably your mother knows the non-relative guests better than you do–and vice versa–and would know whether they give a hoot over what is kosher and what’s not. She may know whether they would have given a hoot in the past, but she does not know if they have decided to observe this year. Happy Passover, everybody! :: dreams of the SIL’s matzoh ball soup :: ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/27 "2014-04-14T20:15:33Z")
DSeid: > [@](#): > > You follow the rule for the sake of the rule; fine that. I get it. I do that which has symbolic meaning to me because that is what has meaning to me, not out of any hang-up. Rule, schmuel. You make it sound like I’m following rules by rote rather than thinking of the meaning behind them. The rule was created with a symbolic meaning on its own, and that symbolic meaning is tied into the rule as it was formulated. If someone wishes to imbue those same actions with their own personal sense of meaning, that’s their prerogative, and I certainly don’t mean to denigrate that, to whom that applies. But in my personal experience, those who won’t eat foods that are legitimately Kosher for Passover because those don’t “feel” like Passover foods to them generally do not have well-thought-out meanings behind that, but rather, a sense of personal discomfort, which I think is fair to refer to as a “hang-up.” ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/28 "2014-04-14T20:42:48Z")
Thank you all for your responses. I have explained my feelings on kosher for passover noodles elsewhere (in short-since the explanation between many of the dietary proscriptions hinges on foods accidentally being mistaken for one another, I feel that it is too easy for non-Passover noodles to be accientally mistaken for Passover noodles and therefore do not eat them during Passover. My concern is that if I were the guest I would be unhappy about the deception but if I were to bring it up, the response (hypothetically) would be something akin to “You are going to make a big deal out of nothing and ruin the holiday just like you always do. I should have know you would do something like this”. I’m glad to hear that there are some out there that agree with me about the issue. (FWIW-none of the invited guest keeps strictly kosher but I don’t know about their Passover traditions) ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/29 "2014-04-14T21:33:51Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > My concern is that if I were the guest I would be unhappy about the deception but if I were to bring it up, the response (hypothetically) would be something akin to “You are going to make a big deal out of nothing and ruin the holiday just like you always do. I should have know you would do something like this”. I’m glad to hear that there are some out there that agree with me about the issue. > > (FWIW-none of the invited guest keeps strictly kosher but I don’t know about their Passover traditions) You know, if she DOES say that, the correct response is to ignore her entirely, and turn to one of the guests to chat about the weather or your local sports team, right? And when she brings it up again, pretend you’ve gone deaf and ignore her again and talk to another guest about how your work is going, and what have they been doing that’s interesting? And when she brings it up again, you choose perhaps another person and chat about their lovely sweater or jewelry. I’ve got one of those relatives, and the only way to win, much like with trolls on the internet, is to refuse to engage. The guests will be quite happy to pretend her comments didn’t happen either, if you give them a lead to follow. Good luck! Sadly that doesn’t get you off the hook after everyone goes home, but it is possible to mention her lapse to the guests and subsequently prevent the entire conversation from being about that sole topic. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/30 "2014-04-14T21:47:35Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > DSeid: > > You make it sound like I’m following rules by rote rather than thinking of the meaning behind them. … No disrespect was intended. I actually respect the position that some who are called “more observant” take that the actions are what matter not why one takes the action. That clearly is not your position which is also okay. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a88e4f/32.png) [@Digital\_is\_the\_new\_Analog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_is_the_new_Analog)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/31 "2014-04-15T02:41:44Z")
> [@psychobunny](#): > > “You are going to make a big deal out of nothing and ruin the holiday just like you always do. I should have know you would do something like this” My response would be that she has it backwards. Serving non-kosher for Passover food is ruining the holiday. Giving someone warning that it’s happening is helping them honor the holiday properly. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/32 "2014-04-16T03:08:11Z")
Nu **Psychobunny**? The seder, it went well? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/33 "2014-04-16T09:59:09Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > Is it possible that a guest is allergic to something that is in regular noodles, but can eat the kosher-for-Passover franken-noodles? Sure. Lots of unusual allergies and sensitivities out there, right? From what little I understand about what’s chametz for Passover, wouldn’t that include being coeliac? It may be “fashionable to care about” right now, but for those who have it it is a pain in the ass and related body parts. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/34 "2014-04-16T12:20:38Z")
Is there, can there be, gluten-free matzoh? I quite agree that you do what you like, but it is unfair to strictly observant people to mislead them. And all these subterfuges like Passover noodles (who knew?) violate the spirit of the holiday. It doesn’t matter to me. Who needs a noodle dish during Passover? ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/35 "2014-04-16T18:25:32Z")
I’m dying to know what happened at the OP’s seder! > [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Is there, can there be, gluten-free matzoh? It turns out that this is a really interesting question. The answer actually hinges on how you define “matzo.” Matzo serves two functions during Passover. It is a ceremonial item and it is also a part of the everyday Passover diet of the observant. For most people, ordinary matzo serves both purposes so the distinction isn’t really important. In terms of the ceremonial functions, matzo itself is part of the rituals of the Passover seder. You say the blessing over it and you’re supposed to eat it at certain points of the seder. The matzo that is suitable for this can only be made of certain grains, none of which are reliably gluten-free. Until someone comes up with some way of creating a true gluten-free matzo containing these grains, the answer is “no.” As far as matzo as everyday food, the great minds at Yehuda have come up with [Matzo-Style Squares](https://www.glutenfreematzo.com/products/matzo/yehuda-gluten-free-matzo), made from tapioca and potato starch, so here, the answer is “yes.” If you follow the link, you’ll see that the the box itself says “matzo-style.” They’re making it clear that the product is not really “matzo” in the sense that it can be used ceremonially, but since it is kosher for Passover, the gluten-intolerant can certainly eat it. Since many traditions forbid eating rice, corn, and various other starchy things during Passover, this product is probably a very welcome development. (Passover without matzo-ball soup is too horrible to contemplate) So what’s a gluten-intolerant person to do about the ceremonial side of things? According to Rabbi Genack of the Orthodox Union, > [@](#): > > …celiacs and others with gluten-sensitivities need not make themselves sick by eating halachically ordained matzo. “If someone can’t eat the matzo and it’s harmful to them, they’re not obligated to,” he concluded. “It really depends on what the condition is and how serious it is.” [Here’s a nice article on the matter.](http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/95982/this-matzo-isnt-a-mitzvah) ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/36 "2014-04-17T01:25:37Z")
Update from the sedar. We had the sedar and everything went smoothly. The others ate the noodle kugel and I declined. The family member who told me “nobody cares” went around offering seconds and specifically asked me if I wanted some but I told myself she probably just forgot and politely declined. The only time the topic came up was when a non-jewish attendee (who had brought his jewish children as his wife was unable to attend) started talking about how his wife made wonderful noodle kugel for the holiday. I basically changed the subject because I didn’t want to get into the issue of what kind of noodles were used by somebody who was not even there. Basically, I said nothing and ignored the subject and figured that anybody who was concerned would either decline the food or ask if the dish was made with passover noodles and since nobody asked I figured that they did not care. Thus I guess that my family was correct although if I had gone to someone else’s sedar and been confronted with the same situation, I am not sure what I would have done. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/37 "2014-04-17T12:56:00Z")
> [@Green\_Bean](#): > > This is one of the many reasons we shouldn’t be eating noodles at seder at all. It is only because of an existing ethical violation that this question even arose. > > You can go through a bunch of contortions to create a noodle that is, according to the letter of the law, kosher for Passover, but such a thing completely violates the spirit of the thing. This aspect of the Passover observance is supposed to be doing without, not with finding devious ways to justify eating what you want. On one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand, rule lawyering and splitting hairs seems to be a big part of Jewish tradition. Look at all the strange ways people have of evading the Sabbath prohibitions about doing work. So I’m OK with the presence of noodles – especially if it’s ala carte. If it bugs you, just say “No noodles in mine, thanks.” But deliberately using non-Kosher ingredients – that seems to be on the wrong side of the line. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2014, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/38 "2014-04-17T17:10:48Z")
DSeid: > [@](#): > > No disrespect was intended. > > I actually respect the position that some who are called “more observant” take that the actions are what matter not why one takes the action. That clearly is not your position which is also okay. I appreciate the clarification. I do believe that blind observance is preferable to non-observance if one can’t discern the “deeper meaning” from the original texts. In my belief, observance should be INFORMED by meaning, but not DEPENDENT on meaning. However, Passover rituals are among the most explicitly-explained commandments in the Torah. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/39 "2014-04-18T13:10:12Z")
Where, for example, did the “18 minute” rule come from? The matzoh must be baked within 18 minutes of meeting water. Now I understand the ritual significance of 18 (its representation in Hebrew numeration spells the word for life), but minutes were not used as a measure of time until the 16th century, although they were used for angles long before. I mention this to point out the arbitrariness of the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2014, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046/40 "2014-04-18T13:31:22Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Where, for example, did the “18 minute” rule come from? > **[Matzah](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/matzah)** > > Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism. > [@](#): > > Under normal conditions of climate and temperature, flour mixed with water begins to ferment in approximately 18 minutes. The matzo commemorates being forced to leave Egypt so quickly that they couldn’t take time to let the bread rise, and the rabbis have set up the 18 minute rule so that fermentation doesn’t start. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passover-ethics-question/686046.md?page=1)