# Passports From Non-Existent Countries **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 18, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893 "2006-03-18T13:15:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/21 "2006-03-19T13:15:56Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > A few thoughts on the subject. > > First, having a false passport is all kinds of illegal. You’re probably increasing your chance of being locked up somewhere by carrying a fake. Technically, it’s _not_ a false passport. You are carrying a document that may _look_ like a passport but it: [ul][li]Does not claim to be issued by a government.[/li][li]Will not be used as an official document.[/li][li]Has nothing, whatsoever, to do with Opal.[/li][/ul] The article I saw came from _Time_ back in the 80’s (IIRC) featured a company that did just this. They quoted a state department official who said that this was not illegal so long as you did not use this as an official document (if you got away from a terrorist with the thing they would probably cut you some slack). All this was, of course, pre 9/11; I have no idea what officialdom would think of it now (still it’s not a forgery–sort of like carrying a $30 bill with a picture of Edison on it). > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Second, you’d have to have a pretty pathetic bunch of kidnappers to have them fooled by a passport from the Ottoman Empire or Austria-Hungary or whatever defunct country you scam a passport from. Not defunct but ‘never existed’. There are [over 190](http://geography.about.com/cs/countries/a/numbercountries.htm) countries in the world, can you list them all? Given my ethnic makeup (European mongrel) I would claim that I was from a small country in northern Europe (practically a city-state). Maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn’t. Thing is, you have just given yourself a _chance_. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Third, even if your kidnappers believe you’re a genuine Siamese or Bohemian or whatever, why would they decide to let you go because of it? In the time period this came up (1980’s) there were a few events where a plane was hijacked and several passengers were set free (as a show of goodwill, to reduce headcount to a more manageable level or whatever). Hijackers are political animals who are protesting something—the nationalities of people who were _least_ to be set free were Israel and the United States. Show some ID that you are from a different country entirely and you _might_ get free. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > Fourth, what happens when they search your luggage and find you have a bunch of passports with different names and nationalities? Suddenly you’re no longer just a random American, you’re a CIA spy. I would consider this unlikely. You have an airplane with 100+ passengers and who knows how many bags, books, pouches, pockets or other places to stash a passport. The limited manpower of the hijackers is almost certainly not going to be spent doing a search. Of course I may be wrong but that is part of the risk: were you in such a situation you would have to ask yourself if it is worth it or not. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/22 "2006-03-19T14:05:38Z")
> [@Little Nemo](#): > > A few thoughts on the subject. > > First, having a false passport is all kinds of illegal. You’re probably increasing your chance of being locked up somewhere by carrying a fake. If you don’t attempt to use it to enter a country and/or clear customs, and don’t present it as official ID to any government official, then cite? Section of the Code? > [@](#): > > Second, you’d have to have a pretty pathetic bunch of kidnappers to have them fooled by a passport from the Ottoman Empire or Austria-Hungary or whatever defunct country you scam a passport from. Haven’t you seen the innumerable studies showing how clueless most people are about geography? And it’s not like terrorists/hijackers are some sorts of brainiacs and world scholars - they’re criminal scum that may have some technical training. I’ll bet if you ask 1,000 people from some random country (or the US) which of these are actual **countries** which issue individual passports **under these names** , the vast, vast majority wouldn’t know: Baja California Bouvet Oya Castille Flanders Goa Greenland Hannover Jersey New Brunswick Persia Prussia Quebec Scotland Venice Wales Yukon > [@](#): > > Third, even if your kidnappers believe you’re a genuine Siamese or Bohemian or whatever, why would they decide to let you go because of it? They may not let you go but you might be subject to less abuse during your captivity. And IIRC there have been cases, like GorillaMan said, where Americans had been singled out for extra abuse. > [@](#): > > Fourth, what happens when they search your luggage and find you have a bunch of passports with different names and nationalities? Suddenly you’re no longer just a random American, you’re a CIA spy. It’s easy to hide/dispose of a real passport. On a plane, slip it into the in-flight magazine. Plus no one talked about carrying an array of passports “in their luggage” like a traveling passport salesman, just a single, fake one to hand to a terrorist. Hell, I know I’d try handing a terrorist a fake Welsh passport. At that point you got almost nothing to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/23 "2006-03-19T14:06:44Z")
Or, I could have said “what Threadkiller said” (I left my computer; your post wasn’t there when I was typing) :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/24 "2006-03-19T19:41:34Z")
Welcome, **Martini Enfield**! \< 007 \>I hope your registering leaves you stirred, not shaken.\< /007 \> 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/25 "2006-03-19T20:58:24Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Welcome, **Martini Enfield**! > > \< 007 \>I hope your registering leaves you stirred, not shaken.\< /007 \> > > 😃 Thanks very much! At this stage I’m planning on sticking around after my guest membership is up, but I’m kinda secretly hoping that they’ll be offering USD$7.95 membership specials or something, since USD$14.95 is getting towards AUD$20 by the time you factor in the exchange rates and ForEx conversion fees etc… Even so, it’s been a very entertaining few days so far, and I’m not regretting signing up at all. I’m just trying not to swamp the boards with threads, and I’ve promised myself I’ll stay out of the pit for at least another few days, since I’ve been told I have a Duckman-like tendency to rant uncontrollably if given enough alcohol and a suitably public forum in which to do it… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/26 "2006-03-20T00:40:40Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > Baja California > Bouvet Oya > Castille > Flanders > Goa > Greenland > Hannover > Jersey > New Brunswick > Persia > Prussia > Quebec > Scotland > Venice > Wales > Yukon In order: an old name for the peninsular part of CA I have no idea a city in Spain a state of the old German Empire (or something vaguely ike that – certainly not a country nowadays) Again, no idea I think Greenland is an actual country, but we only learn about what Europeans called it when it was discovered a German city (unless the extra ‘n’ makes a difference) UKish island, I think not a country ancient empire, exists with different name and different borders May or may not still exist Canadian province part of UK, though not willingly Italian city/city-state Maybe an independent country, I’m not sure Also a Canadian province So, without looking up anything, a maximum of 5 countries on that list, but I strongly suspect that every place on there is unable to issue its own passports. And I apologize to inhabitants of the locations described above if my description causes offense. It is not my intent. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/27 "2006-03-20T00:48:41Z")
I suspect the two on that list which issue identifiably-unique passports are Greenland and Jersey ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/28 "2006-03-20T01:15:27Z")
I bet Québec would like to be able to issue its own passports. New Brunswick is a Canadian province, not a UK island. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/29 "2006-03-20T01:27:06Z")
I think **dwalin** jumped straight from Jersey to Persia ---
**Author:** ![Ms\_Macphisto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b487fb/32.png) [@Ms\_Macphisto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms_Macphisto)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/30 "2006-03-20T01:46:04Z")
> [@Una Persson](#): > > They may not let you go but you might be subject to less abuse during your captivity. And IIRC there have been cases, like GorillaMan said, where Americans had been singled out for extra abuse. As for hostages being released, there was a case just within the past week where a Palestinian group released a Canadian they had captured specifically because he was Canadian and not American as they had initially thought. [Cite](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060316.wxhostage16/BNStory/International/) ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/31 "2006-03-20T01:59:56Z")
Without looking anything up: > [@dwalin](#): > > In order: > an old name for the peninsular part of CA Yes. Bouvet? An island. Isn’t it one of the French Southern and Antarctic Lands? > [@](#): > > a city in Spain Castile is a region of Spain. > [@](#): > > a state of the old German Empire (or something vaguely ike that – certainly not a country nowadays) Flanders is the Flemish part of Belgium. > [@](#): > > Again, no idea A state of India, formerly a Portuguese colony. India took it over in the 1950s. > [@](#): > > I think Greenland is an actual country, but we only learn about what Europeans called it when it was discovered You mean Kalaliit Nunaat? > [@](#): > > a German city (unless the extra ‘n’ makes a difference) Right you are, and the difference it makes is between the English and German forms of the same name. > [@](#): > > UKish island, I think not a country One of the Channel Islands. Technically a dukedom (instead of a kingdom?), and the queen is their duke. You skipped New Brunswick, one of Canada’s Atlantic Provinces. > [@](#): > > ancient empire, exists with different name and different borders Persia was a modern empire too, you know. Until Shah Reza changed the name to Iran in the 1930s. I think it was to make Hitler like him better or something because it was etymologically derived from “Aryan.” Ariana Airlines of Afghanistan also pays tribute to the people’s Aryan origin. > [@](#): > > May or may not still exist Historically Prussia was a kingdom of northern Germany, which extended itself by conquest in the Middle Ages into Baltic territory, and in the 19th century formed the most powerful part of the new state of Germany. > [@](#): > > Canadian province Vous avez raison. > [@](#): > > part of UK, though not willingly Voting Scots Nationalist, are we? > [@](#): > > Italian city/city-state Right. > [@](#): > > Maybe an independent country, I’m not sure Wales got its own regional government recently. It was absorbed by England in the Middle Ages and for many centuries there was no such thing as Wales as a political entity, its legal status was just some more counties of England that got added to England a bit later than the others. But I’d like to know what is currently the status of Wales, since it now seems to have some recognition within the UK of being its own place, not just a subset of England? > [@](#): > > Also a Canadian province I know of it as a territory; has it been promoted to province yet? But then, I’ve been reading _National Geographic_ all my life. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/32 "2006-03-20T02:16:09Z")
> [@Collaborator](#): > > If you want a real passport from a somewhat interesting questionable place, try Sealand. The whole “Country” consists of gun platform out in the sea near great britain. While it hasn’t been officially recognized by anyone that matters as far as I can tell, it’s probably just as legitimate as what you’re proposing. > [http://www.sealandgov.com/](http://www.sealandgov.com/) Although many passports have been sold by unscrupulous parties bearing the banner of the [Principality of Sealand](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand), I don’t believe that His Royal Highness Prince Roy has authorized the general sale of passports from that tiny nation. A certain number have been issued to parties engaged in business with Sealand in addition to the indigenous population, but they are not and have never been available strictly for cash. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/33 "2006-03-20T02:21:24Z")
What #@&% indigenous population? Is that some kind of joke? Seagulls, seaweed, and barnacles would about do it for indigenous biota, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/34 "2006-03-20T02:23:50Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > But I’d like to know what is currently the status of Wales, since it now seems to have some recognition within the UK of being its own place, not just a subset of England?I know of it as a territory; has it been promoted to province yet? Wales is Wales. Trying to say “we need a label for this place” is what causes all sorts of arguments about what defines a ‘nation’ and so on. Sometimes it gets described as a ‘principality’, but this doesn’t actually say anything else, without explaining that it’s because of the union of the legal systems blah blah blah. It has a very strong cultural identity, including the realistic survival of the language, but in most other ways is intrinsically tied to England, especially in economic terms. The creation of the Welsh Assembly wasn’t really any fundamental change, because it basically took over the powers of the Welsh Office. It doesn’t have anything like as much power as the Scottish Parliament, and the opportunity to have these powers was rejected in the referendum which created the Assembly. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/35 "2006-03-20T02:48:44Z")
One advantage in having a Welsh passport: no potential terrorist is likely to be able to read Welsh. Where do I sign up? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/36 "2006-03-20T02:50:44Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > no potential terrorist is likely to be able to read Welsh. Where do I sign up? [http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/welsh/index.asp](http://www.ukpa.gov.uk/welsh/index.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/37 "2006-03-20T02:51:13Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > What #@&% indigenous population? Is that some kind of joke? Seagulls, seaweed, and barnacles would about do it for indigenous biota, I imagine. You know, there are a lot of decaffinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/38 "2006-03-20T03:05:13Z")
[Bouvet Island, aka Bouvet Oya, aka Bouvetøya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouvet_Island) It’s a somewhat mysterious place. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/39 "2006-03-20T04:20:12Z")
Where’s Springfield? It’s in the Netherlands. Why? Because the Simpsons live next door to Flanders. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893/40 "2006-03-20T14:51:02Z")
New Brunswick is also a city in New Jersey. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/passports-from-non-existent-countries/348893.md?page=3)