# Pastor Jones & His Moral Responsibility for Death (Or: The Cleansing Effect of the Intermediary) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899 "2011-04-02T01:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/181 "2011-04-04T00:42:29Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > On the contrary; you yourself are underlining my point. The Iraqis had nothing to do with 9-11; but like you many people supported killing them over 9-11 just because most of them are Muslim. Iraq was in part a war of Christians against Muslims, the Christian Crusade many Muslims called it. I didn’t realize that Kenan Makiya and Paul Wolfowitz were Christians while Tariq Aziz was a Muslim. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/182 "2011-04-04T02:24:16Z")
That’s why he said “in part” and “many”. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/183 "2011-04-04T02:39:20Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Certainly “it would have happened anyway” would be a valid defense if true, but it’s probably not. > > It is true that there are those in the Muslim world who will cynically incite and perpetrate violence given any suitable pretext, but the question isn’t whether Jones’ act was necessary for there to be this kind of violence. Obviously it is not. The question is whether or not Jones’ act specifically led to more \*marginal \*deaths. If Jones hadn’t burned that Koran, would those 12 people at the U.N. outpost have been murdered? Was there an opportunity cost to murdering those 12 people (i.e., if they weren’t there killing those 12 people, would the killers then have, and have taken, the opportunity to kill 12 or more \*other \*people?). > > Probably the answers are no and no. Even pretext-exploiting, cynical, murdering bastards need workable pretexts, and by so stupidly and needlessly providing one Jones gave them an opportunity they may otherwise not have had. More nebulously: enmity begets enmity, and Jones’ action had the effect of reinforcing the vicious circle which is causing the deaths of many Westerners and many, many Muslims. As I pointed out earlier, there are videos of people burning Korans on the internet. There are an infinite number of Islamic insults on the internet. They reacted to something Karzai said. This happened 8000 miles away. Reverend Jones didn’t do it at a Mosque, or in front of Muslims. He is no more guilty of the murders than anybody else who has critisized the religion publicly. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/184 "2011-04-04T02:49:42Z")
If I was President Obama I’d have Karzai on the carpet with threats of pulling out. Fuck that little weasle. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/185 "2011-04-04T03:55:45Z")
The problem is that the alternative is worse. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/186 "2011-04-04T04:41:59Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > **But even if that were all true, why do some people focus their anger on Pastor Jones instead of the people who were directly responsible for the deaths and who, surely, are guilty of the greater crime?** > Because their responsibility is pedestrian and obvious, and therefore uninteresting. Because no one disputes their responsibility, and so nothing more is required than to acknowledge it in passing. Because many people _don’t_ recognize Jones’ culpability, and ought to be corrected. Finally, because Jones is _one of us_, and, to be honest, though I know I shouldn’t, I therefore expect more out of him. Wrong. The culpability lies with the violent adherents of Islam. No one else. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/187 "2011-04-04T12:23:18Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > abortion, on the other hand, really gets some of the Christian death-cults salivating. if Jones bears some responsibility for the deaths in riots against his Koran burning, it would seem that abortionists bear the same responsibility for anti-abortion terror. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/188 "2011-04-04T12:45:47Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The ones responsible for the murders are the imams who incited the violence of the mob. They should be arrested and after trial, shot by the American authorities. Oh, but of course. Whenever Afghans murder other Afghans in Afghanistan, then obviously the US courts have jurisdiction. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/189 "2011-04-04T13:06:21Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Oh, but of course. Whenever Afghans murder other Afghans in Afghanistan, then obviously the US courts have jurisdiction. It wasn’t just Afghans that were murdered was it? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/190 "2011-04-04T13:27:26Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If I was President Obama I’d have Karzai on the carpet with threats of pulling out. Fuck that little weasle. Threats? IMO, our continued military presence there, viewed by many as an occupation of foreigners, and the death of Afghan civilians, has a lot to do with setting the stage for these riots. I don’t understand why we’re still there. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/191 "2011-04-04T13:38:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > As I pointed out earlier, there are videos of people burning Korans on the internet. There are an infinite number of Islamic insults on the internet. They reacted to something Karzai said. This happened 8000 miles away. Reverend Jones didn’t do it at a Mosque, or in front of Muslims. He is no more guilty of the murders than anybody else who has critisized the religion publicly. I agree. If Muslim nations ever want to join the rest of the modern world they must understand the concept of free speech and a proportioned response. Burn the American flag, Obama and Terry Jones, in effigy if you must , but killing innocents is barbaric. Those who used this incident to incite anti-foreign sentiment threw a match on the kindling , more than Jones did. The event was exploited. That’s not Jones fault. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/192 "2011-04-04T14:20:46Z")
I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to find some vageuly-recalled discussions here from the early days of the Iraq war about how anti-war protestors were somehow endangering American soldiers by presenting a less-than-united front. I also recall people blaming Bush’s “Bring it on!” statement for inflaming the insurgents. This is hardly the first discussion we’ve had of this kind. The people who killed people are the ones responsible for killing people. Jones is an asshole for doing something hateful and provocative but the mob in Afghanistan and those who incited them were already looking for any excuse. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/193 "2011-04-04T14:54:18Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > It wasn’t just Afghans that were murdered was it? I’m sure it wasn’t. The point is that the US doesn’t automatically have jurisdiction across the planet as Qin seems to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/194 "2011-04-04T14:55:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > if Jones bears some responsibility for the deaths in riots against his Koran burning, it would seem that abortionists bear the same responsibility for anti-abortion terror. > > Regards, > Shodan Not at all. Intent matters. Doing things necessary for daily life isn’t the same thing as going out of your way to “put the Koran on trial” and burning it when found guilty. :rolleyes: We all know the killers and in your example the abortion bombers are doing evil acts. But going out of your way to call down the evil people is what this thread is asking about. Performing abortions is legal and necessary. The doctors who do it aren’t specifically trying to rabble-rouse. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/195 "2011-04-04T15:44:47Z")
I love to participate in these debates. 😃 Unfortunately I don’t know the answer to this one. :smack: I do propose a thought experiment. Suppose a group advocating tolerance proposed to hold a parade in Jones’ town, with placards denouncing Jones’ proposed action. Jones responds that if the demonstrators stand down he won’t burn a Koran, but if he sees them marching he will. The tolerance group parades, Jones burns the Koran, and, as expected, there is deadly violence in Afghanistan in response. Do the tolerance demonstrators have moral responsibility for those deaths? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/196 "2011-04-04T15:58:01Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I do propose a thought experiment. Suppose a group advocating tolerance proposed to hold a parade in Jones’ town, with placards denouncing Jones’ proposed action. Jones responds that if the demonstrators stand down he won’t burn a Koran, but if he sees them marching he will. > > The tolerance group parades, Jones burns the Koran, and, as expected, there is deadly violence in Afghanistan in response. > > Do the tolerance demonstrators have moral responsibility for those deaths? Is marching in favor of tolerance an asshole move? Almost certainly not (no more than providing abortions is, **Shodan** ), so even if they have some responsibility, they can justify performing the act anyway. Change the experiment: some jerkish protestors decide they’re going to go outside his house and set up a minaret and sing 5xdaily calls to prayer, just to piss him off. He predictably responds by burning the Koran, and predictably some murderers in Afghanistan go on a murder-spree. In this changed hypothetical, the minaret-prayer-callers are being assholes, and so their responsibility is unadulterated by any redeeming quality. It in no way lessens the guilt of the murderers or of Jones; it just adds a new group of guilty people to the equation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/197 "2011-04-04T16:11:48Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is marching in favor of tolerance an asshole move? Almost certainly not (no more than providing abortions is, **Shodan** ), so even if they have some responsibility, they can justify performing the act anyway. By that standard, any protest that pisses off extremists is an asshole move. The on difference, in other words, between burning a Koran and burning a flag is that there are more Muslims terrorists than American terrorists. The discussion reminds me of the one about the ground zero mosque. They didn’t _have_ to build it there either. Was building it so close to the WTC an asshole move? Would it have been an asshole move if people were killed in anti-Muslim riots in New York City? > [@](#): > > The difference is: > > 1. Piss-Christ-dude knows that the ultimate bad effects of his work might be to get NEA defunded by reactionary conservatives. > 2. Jones knows that the ultimate bad effects of his work might be to get some innocent people killed. > > The latter is a lot worse than the former. It seems the standard is “how civilized, or otherwise, are your opponents?” You can insult Christians freely, because they behave themselves. Insulting Islamic terrorists is different. How responsible was the jury in the first Rodney King trial? Would the OJ Simpson jury have been responsible if whites rioted after OJ was acquitted? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/198 "2011-04-04T16:20:44Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I love to participate in these debates. 😃 Unfortunately I don’t know the answer to this one. :smack: > > I do propose a thought experiment. Suppose a group advocating tolerance proposed to hold a parade in Jones’ town, with placards denouncing Jones’ proposed action. Jones responds that if the demonstrators stand down he won’t burn a Koran, but if he sees them marching he will. > > The tolerance group parades, Jones burns the Koran, and, as expected, there is deadly violence in Afghanistan in response. > > Do the tolerance demonstrators have moral responsibility for those deaths? I commend you on presenting an excellent thought experiment. A+ ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/199 "2011-04-04T17:42:05Z")
So… if, in reaction to P.Z. Myers’ alleged desecration of a Communion wafer, some maniacal Catholic had gone on a killing spree, would ANYBODY on the SDMB be blaming the deaths on Professor Myers? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/200 "2011-04-04T18:11:23Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > So… if, in reaction to P.Z. Myers’ alleged desecration of a Communion wafer, some maniacal Catholic had gone on a killing spree, would ANYBODY on the SDMB be blaming the deaths on Professor Myers? Can we expand your hypothetical a bit? In this situation, is there a known tiny group of Catholics that kill random people in response to wafer-disrespect? If you know that there are a group of said people, and you have no power to stop them, I’d say that waferciding is something you’d need to weigh against the random deaths that you would cause. Do you have a right to do it? Of course. Is it legal, probably. Would you do it if you knew you’d be getting people who had nothing to do with you killed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899.md?page=11)