# Pastor Jones & His Moral Responsibility for Death (Or: The Cleansing Effect of the Intermediary) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899 "2011-04-02T01:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/321 "2011-04-24T01:22:05Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Nope. An armed guy who was trying to gather a lot of people in front of a mosque. Okay the gun I could see. But if he left the gun to home? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/322 "2011-04-24T01:23:51Z")
Still the embuggerance factor and the problem of gathering a lot of people while trying to incite a riot. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/323 "2011-04-24T01:32:51Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Still the embuggerance factor and the problem of gathering a lot of people while trying to incite a riot. Well I have to play devils advocate here. Let’s start with the first. Where does Free Speech define it’s self as subject to being bared by “embuggerance”? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/324 "2011-04-24T01:57:57Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Still the embuggerance factor and the problem of gathering a lot of people while trying to incite a riot. Now we’re back to free speech, Fred Phelps and funerals. If the people take a show hands of who is willing to riot does Fred still have his beloved free speech? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/325 "2011-04-24T02:38:42Z")
You realize, folks, that what y’all are talking about is a person who refused to pay a $1 bond that he would not cause a breach of the peace? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/326 "2011-04-24T02:41:04Z")
It comes down to finding a balance between conflicting rights, so don’t expect consistency between different fact scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/327 "2011-04-24T06:39:30Z")
I’ve argued conceptually for clarification of the line between freedom of speech and disturbing the peace. the concept of freedom of speech certainly originated from the idea that people had the right to assemble and exchange ideas. Somehow it has morphed into the idea that people must listen to it whether they want to or not. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/328 "2011-04-24T12:33:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve argued conceptually for clarification of the line between freedom of speech and disturbing the peace. the concept of freedom of speech certainly originated from the idea that people had the right to assemble and exchange ideas. Somehow it has morphed into the idea that people must listen to it whether they want to or not. Well said. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/329 "2011-04-24T16:07:49Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > the concept of freedom of speech certainly originated from the idea that people had the right to assemble and exchange ideas. Maybe you think it is quite amusing to promulgate your little exercise in the exploration for greater understanding of the concept of freedom of speech, but If you actually believe this statement can be even remotely associated with what jones and phelps does you are seriously delusional. :rolleyes: That is why we have courts, judges and laws to delineate the issues for people with problems of muddling comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/330 "2011-04-24T17:17:06Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > Maybe you think it is quite amusing to promulgate your little exercise in the exploration for greater understanding of the concept of freedom of speech, but > If you actually believe this statement can be even remotely associated with what jones and phelps does you are seriously delusional. Were you to stop rolling your eyes and sneering long enough to read the rest of what he wrote, you might have found he was making a point not particularly contradictory to yours. Granted, it takes a bit longer and isn’t as much fun as sneering at everything… ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/331 "2011-04-24T18:10:22Z")
> [@Nadir](#): > > That is why we have courts, judges and laws to delineate the issues for people with problems of muddling comprehension. Then it’s best that you toddle off to court now. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/332 "2011-04-24T20:40:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ve argued conceptually for clarification of the line between freedom of speech and disturbing the peace. the concept of freedom of speech certainly originated from the idea that people had the right to assemble and exchange ideas. Somehow it has morphed into the idea that people must listen to it whether they want to or not. That’s a very good point. And succinct as well, so double bonus points and triple word score to you. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/333 "2011-04-24T20:42:53Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There are millions of jackasses making their little protests all the time. We just saw a handful of them pay thousands of dollars for the privilege of punking the President of the United States at a fund raiser. I could easily stomp Fred Phelps dead if he showed up at a family funeral of mine, why is he or the protesters at the presidential fund raiser not thrown in jail? I said I was disappointed that Dearborn pursued the case instead of letting Jones have his protest. I think the city’s only really legitimate argument against it was the traffic problems it would cause. I also don’t think Phelps should be thrown in jail. Shunned and mocked, but not thrown in jail for protesting. I also think Democratic protesters shouldn’t have been thrown in jail for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts at public rallies. I’m fairly sure that this is a demonstrably (no pun intended) consistent personal conviction of mine. Why shouldn’t Phelps, Jones and others be thrown in jail for protesting? Because it violates the constitutional right to free speech. End of story, IMHO. I think you have me mistaken for someone who posted something ENTIRELY different than the post of mine you replied to. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/334 "2011-04-24T20:57:33Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > I said I was disappointed that Dearborn pursued the case instead of letting Jones have his protest. I think the city’s only really legitimate argument against it was the traffic problems it would cause. > > I also don’t think Phelps should be thrown in jail. Shunned and mocked, but not thrown in jail for protesting. I also think Democratic protesters shouldn’t have been thrown in jail for wearing anti-Bush t-shirts at public rallies. I’m fairly sure that this is a demonstrably (no pun intended) consistent personal conviction of mine. Why shouldn’t Phelps, Jones and others be thrown in jail for protesting? Because it violates the constitutional right to free speech. End of story, IMHO. > > I think you have me mistaken for someone who posted something ENTIRELY different than the post of mine you replied to. So the threat of violence which has been promised through several sources, is not a legitimate reason to stop him? Jones bail was 1 dollar. They were not abusing him. They just want him to go away. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/335 "2011-04-24T22:47:20Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So the threat of violence which has been promised through several sources, is not a legitimate reason to stop him? Think about that for a minute. If you’re saying that should be the standard for the government to preemptively keep people from speaking publicly, then that will become the standard method for people to shut up people they don’t wanna hear. Don’t like the Tea Party? Threaten violence and the government will hold a trial and keep them from speaking. Don’t like the union supporters? Threaten violence and let the government refuse to allow that protest. Doesn’t even matter if you have any intention of actually committing violence, if the threat of it is enough reason to stop a protest. That is not and should not be the government’s job. The government should be arresting the people making the death threats, not the people attempting to exercise constitutional rights. In my opinion, if he wants to spout highly unpopular opinions and then go out there without paying for his own security and risk someone following through on their death threats, the government should allow him to do that. > [@](#): > > Jones bail was 1 dollar. They were not abusing him. They just want him to go away. They’ve banned him from the mosque’s grounds for three years to keep him from speaking there. I don’t see a whole lot of difference between that and Bush’s Free Speech Zones conveniently placed to keep protesters away from what they were protesting. And the whole “wanting him to go away” thing didn’t work now, did it, if that was their goal; he’s coming back next week. If they’d let him protest, he’d be gone already. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/336 "2011-04-24T23:17:04Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So the threat of violence which has been promised through several sources, is not a legitimate reason to stop him? Here’s a hypothetical scenario for you. A group of activists proposes to hold a march in support of gay marriage, and they make clear their intention to march past a conservative church that has campaigned against gay rights. A bunch of anonymous homophobes send threats that any such march will be met with violence. Should the authorities use the threat of violence to stop the march? ---
**Author:** ![maladroit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@maladroit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maladroit)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/337 "2011-04-25T20:38:57Z")
I think if Jones is only speaking against the radical muslims as he claims, then he should go find a radical madrassa in front of which to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Nadir](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nadir/32/7302_2.png) [@Nadir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nadir)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/338 "2011-04-25T21:59:17Z")
Strap a parachute on him and push him out the back of a C-130 over that town in Afghanistan where the people got killed after his last little “demonstration.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/339 "2011-04-26T01:58:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > So the threat of violence which has been promised through several sources, is not a legitimate reason to stop him? > Jones bail was 1 dollar. They were not abusing him. They just want him to go away. So your town decides it doesn’t like: fill in the blank \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ and arrests them for unhappy thoughts with an agreement to let them go at the city line for $1. What a brave new world you live in. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/340 "2011-04-26T15:03:34Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > It comes down to finding a balance between conflicting rights, so don’t expect consistency between different fact scenarios. On one hand, we have the right to free speech. What right is on the other? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899.md?page=18)