# Pastor Jones & His Moral Responsibility for Death (Or: The Cleansing Effect of the Intermediary) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899 "2011-04-02T01:30:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/61 "2011-04-02T23:59:35Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > More like 300 years ago. Do you have a cite that this happened in the last 300 years? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/62 "2011-04-03T00:16:39Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Do you have a cite that this happened in the last 300 years? The inquisition ended in 1835, I knew it tempered down near the end, so I was assuming that a hundred years before was safe. [ > [@](#): > > According to Henry Charles Lea[18] between 1540 and 1794 tribunals in Lisbon, Porto, Coimbra and Évora resulted in the burning of 1,175 persons, the burning of another 633 in effigy, and the penancing of 29,590 ]([Inquisition - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition)) ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/63 "2011-04-03T00:19:11Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The inquisition ended in 1835, I knew it tempered down near the end, so I was assuming that a hundred years before was safe. How many of those burned at the stake were burned because of what they did to the bible? I’m just curious. Upon further reflection, my bad. I totally missed the point of your post for some reason. Ignore my reply. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/64 "2011-04-03T00:22:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > But as I say, Jones has no ability to stop the few that will kill for a slight to Islam. So they are simply going to keep happening and there is blood on his hands. Like hell it is. Insane, evil, jackasses acted like subhuman garbage. They alone choose their actions. Maybe the solution it keep burning Korans to till the dark age retards get the idea. It’s not a slap in the face of a billion Muslims. It’s a slap in the face of only the ones who want to force their religion on us. > [@](#): > > Also, it’s my understanding that Muslims believe that the Koran is directly transcribed by God without filter (I assume that think that Mohammed recited verbatim what he heard). Thus they think it’s a bit more holy than the bible. This, I think would be similar to the desecration of the communion crackers in that earlier thread. I was pro-desecration there too. You bring up a good point through. Fuck the Koran, let’s desecrate common sacred objects of all kinds. Holy water, American flags, Piss Christ reenactments, pictures of Chairman Mao, Korans, anything. Let’s show the proper contempt for all censorship desires. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/65 "2011-04-03T00:25:48Z")
The longer this story develops, the more it sounds like there was a nonviolent protest of Jones’ burning that was infiltrated by a small number of violent Taliban-type lunatics who wanted to rampage and kill people. If you think Jones has any responsibility, that would seem to reduce it by a great deal. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/66 "2011-04-03T00:29:26Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Like hell it is. Insane, evil, jackasses acted like subhuman garbage. They alone choose their actions. > > Maybe the solution it keep burning Korans to till the dark age retards get the idea. It’s not a slap in the face of a billion Muslims. It’s a slap in the face of only the ones who want to force their religion on us. > > I was pro-desecration there too. You bring up a good point through. Fuck the Koran, let’s desecrate common sacred objects of all kinds. Holy water, American flags, Piss Christ reenactments, pictures of Chairman Mao, Korans, anything. > > Let’s show the proper contempt for all censorship desires. Oh I hate censorship too. But if a force out of your control will kill random people when you do X, and doing X actually increases the power and scope of the force, you shouldn’t do X. You have a lot of rights. But you need to intelligently decide when to use them. The fact remains that those rotting corpses in Afghanistan would still be breathing if Jones didn’t burn his Koran. He decided to make a statement that would get innocent people killed. People who had nothing to do with him. And he knew it was likely to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/67 "2011-04-03T00:30:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. That’s just us capitulating to a Christian fanatic who wants to whip up religious hatred between Americans and Muslims. That’s us going along with religious intolerance, not nobly fighting against it like you are trying to pretend. But then, I guess Christian religious intolerance is somehow morally superior to Muslim religious intolerance. Capitulating? What would you have had “us” do? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/68 "2011-04-03T00:35:28Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > More like 300 years ago. Okay, 300 years. Might as well be 2,000. > [@Lobohan](#): > > You do know that Christians in primitive countries still burn witches, right? It’s the society that sucks, not the religion. Yes, I am aware of it. But these are clearly exceptional instances, wouldn’t you agree? Wouldn’t you also agree that the vast majority of Christians throughout the world would view that behavior as ignorant, uncivilized and unacceptable? > [@Lobohan](#): > > Again, you need to note that the problem is shitty primitive countries, not Islam itself. I wish I could ascribe it to shitty-primitive-countriness. But you are aware that a good many of Islamic terrorists are well educated and come from good families, right? You are aware, I assume, that even some Muslims in the U.S. have insisted in bringing their throwback thinking into modern civilizations. Honor killings, for instance, among well-educated Muslims. > [@Lobohan](#): > > I don’t excuse the behavior, but I blame it on ignorance and poverty, not which imaginary friend makes it rain. But it’s really not ignorance and poverty. Or, at least, not ignorance and poverty alone. Again, many terrorists and those who support them are very well educated and are not poor. Bin Laden, for example. And while there are plenty of poor people in the world, not many groups go around blowing up innocent women and children and beheading journalists. Though Mexico seems intent is trying to prove me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/69 "2011-04-03T00:38:37Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > Ironically, I don’t recall seeing anyone yet who disputes the bolded part; everyone who insists that you can’t possibly blame him in any degree for the bad actions of others also agrees that he’s an asshole and he shouldn’t have made a spectacle out of burning the Koran. But this position is inconsistent: if he can’t be held responsible for the harm that others may do in retaliation for his act, _then why shouldn’t he do it_? Or is it merely that he shouldn’t have done it because it was “tacky,” and the 12 resultant murders are just “meh.” I’d say he shouldn’t have done it merely because it’s “tacky”, or more to the point, because polite people don’t desecrate others religious symbols, or, more generally, act in ways intended to give offense. It’s the same argument in that thread earlier about the guy who hammered a nail through a Catholic communion wafer. It’s just not a very respectful thing to do. But his actions didn’t cause the death of those 12 people. The murders are independent moral actors. They aren’t automatons. They chose how they were going to respond to the action, and the way they chose to respond was to get murdery. They could have done other things…they could have written nasty letters, they could have peacefully protested, they could have burned a Christian bible in response. Those were all choices they could have made, and they chose not to. So the deaths of those 12 people are on their heads. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/70 "2011-04-03T00:50:56Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’d say he shouldn’t have done it merely because it’s “tacky”, or more to the point, because polite people don’t desecrate others religious symbols, or, more generally, act in ways intended to give offense. It’s the same argument in that thread earlier about the guy who hammered a nail through a Catholic communion wafer. It’s just not a very respectful thing to do. > > But his actions didn’t cause the death of those 12 people. The murders are independent moral actors. They aren’t automatons. They chose how they were going to respond to the action, and the way they chose to respond was to get murdery. They could have done other things…they could have written nasty letters, they could have peacefully protested, they could have burned a Christian bible in response. Those were all choices they could have made, and they chose not to. So the deaths of those 12 people are on their heads. But the group of angry, murdery people are out there. They exist. And are waiting to be offended. Knowing that they exist and inciting them is a dangerous thing to do. Pretend they are wolves. And Jones is hanging sheep carcasses near the kindergarten playground. Did Jones carry a child off and feast on its tender, juicy meat? No. Does he have the right to hang sheep carcasses… well, I’m not sure about that one, but for our purposes assume yes. Is he somewhat responsible? I’d say yes. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/71 "2011-04-03T01:17:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > But the group of angry, murdery people are out there. They exist. And are waiting to be offended. Knowing that they exist and inciting them is a dangerous thing to do. > > Pretend they are wolves. And Jones is hanging sheep carcasses near the kindergarten playground. Did Jones carry a child off and feast on its tender, juicy meat? No. Does he have the right to hang sheep carcasses… well, I’m not sure about that one, but for our purposes assume yes. Is he somewhat responsible? I’d say yes. That’s the problem. They’re waiting to be offended. At some point someone will offend them. What if it had been South Park, or drawing of Mohammad? How about the Wikipedia. Should it be censored lest they kill someone over a Mohammad pic? Just how many egg shells must be walked on? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/72 "2011-04-03T01:21:46Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > That’s the problem. They’re waiting to be offended. At some point someone will offend them. What if it had been South Park, or drawing of Mohammad? How about the Wikipedia. Should it be censored lest they kill someone over a Mohammad pic? > > Just how many egg shells must be walked on? None. We shouldn’t do a single thing different. But why would a person who cared about innocent people getting killed go out of his way to ensure that the angeratti would murder them? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/73 "2011-04-03T01:22:14Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The First Amendment in this country says that the federal government can’t make it illegal to say or express any viewpoint. Neither the First Amendment nor anything else could possibly make it morally right to express a particular viewpoint. If a person goes around deliberately saying things that are inflammatory, that person shares responsibility when the anger of others is inflamed. > > That said, I’m a little bit puzzled why so much anger gets directed at Jones for this incident. If we want to get angry at those whose actions have made Muslims angry, George W. Bush would seem to be a much more logical target. I would think the rabid monkeys doing the violence would be the logical target. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/74 "2011-04-03T01:22:31Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > But the group of angry, murdery people are out there. They exist. And are waiting to be offended. Knowing that they exist and inciting them is a dangerous thing to do. > > Pretend they are wolves. And Jones is hanging sheep carcasses near the kindergarten playground. Did Jones carry a child off and feast on its tender, juicy meat? No. Does he have the right to hang sheep carcasses… well, I’m not sure about that one, but for our purposes assume yes. Is he somewhat responsible? I’d say yes. I think the fact that you have to compare people to wolves is telling in itself. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/75 "2011-04-03T01:27:27Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I think the fact that you have to compare people to wolves is telling in itself. Some people are wolves. Some Christians are wolves, some Muslims and even some of those shifty Shintoists. The fact that subsect of Muslims exist that will kill when they are insulted is something that needs to be dealt with. And you aren’t going to weaken that subset of people by burning holy books. I’m not saying the killers aren’t to blame. I’m saying that they will rise to the occasion and Jones is simply getting innocent people killed so he can paint all Muslims as a kind with the killers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/76 "2011-04-03T01:51:45Z")
All my actions have consequences. Including words and symbolic acts. I accept that. I impose that responsibility on others. Mr. Jones, a dangerous religious fanatic, deliberately incited other dangerous religious fanatics to murder. They all bear full moral responsibility, jointly and severally. Mr. Jones deliberately took acts that led to the deaths of these people. He is not morally absolved in any way by the foreseeable criminal activity of others that actually commit the murders. And yes, by this logic, anti-abortionists who share this logic would find me morally responsible for supporting abortion rights in general. Just because you are filming jackass and can legally kick someone in the balls doesn’t make it right to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/77 "2011-04-03T01:57:01Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > But the group of angry, murdery people are out there. They exist. And are waiting to be offended. Knowing that they exist and inciting them is a dangerous thing to do. > > Pretend they are wolves. And Jones is hanging sheep carcasses near the kindergarten playground. Did Jones carry a child off and feast on its tender, juicy meat? No. Does he have the right to hang sheep carcasses… well, I’m not sure about that one, but for our purposes assume yes. Is he somewhat responsible? I’d say yes. If these were wolves, I’d agree with you. But they’re not wolves, they’re men. And men make choices. That’s what makes them men. When a wolf attacks a sheep carcass, it can’t help itself, but these people can. They make a choice. > [@](#): > > None. We shouldn’t do a single thing different. But why would a person who cared about innocent people getting killed go out of his way to ensure that the angeratti would murder them? Why shouldn’t we do anything different? If you’re theory is correct, and Jones is morally responsible for making these people kill, then if they kill because there’s a picture of Muhammed in Wikipedia or South Park, then whoever put that picture in Wikipedia or South Park is responsible. If that’s the standard you want to use, then where’s the distinction? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/78 "2011-04-03T02:04:07Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > If these were wolves, I’d agree with you. But they’re not wolves, they’re men. And men make choices. That’s what makes them men. When a wolf attacks a sheep carcass, it can’t help itself, but these people can. They make a choice. But from the perspective of Jones they might as well be wolves. He can’t control them and he knows they’re a danger. > [@](#): > > Why shouldn’t we do anything different? If you’re theory is correct, and Jones is morally responsible for making these people kill, then if they kill because there’s a picture of Muhammed in Wikipedia or South Park, then whoever put that picture in Wikipedia or South Park is responsible. If that’s the standard you want to use, then where’s the distinction? More than one person can be responsible for something. It isn’t a zero sum. Jones, the Imams, the killers and the men that didn’t stop it all have a hand in it. The most blame goes to the killers themselves. But Jones’ cowardly actions (when other people would get killed for it) deserve a share of the blame. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/79 "2011-04-03T03:34:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Like hell it is. Insane, evil, jackasses acted like subhuman garbage. They alone choose their actions. Yes, and Pastor Jones chose \*his _actions, for which he bears responsibility. He made it more likely that someone or something else would lead (in a more direct fashion) to violent deaths. \* To the degree that he knowingly made the deaths more likely_, he is responsible and/or culpable. I don’t get to go around making up stories to wife-beaters about their spouses cheating on them and then say, “Hey, all I’m guilty of is telling a lie – I’m not at all responsible for the savage beatings.” > [@](#): > > Maybe the solution it keep burning Korans to till the dark age retards get the idea. It’s not a slap in the face of a billion Muslims. It’s a slap in the face of only the ones who want to force their religion on us. “Those fucking bees over by that tree keep stinging anyone who goes near them. That’s bullshit! I’m going to go over there and throw rocks at their beehive until they stop.” “What? No! _Bees don’t learn that way!_ All you’re going to do is…” “Yep, rocks!” I’m still curious to see a response to post #23’s hypothetical – how exactly does one absolve the guy who provokes the gang-raping bandits into gang-rape? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899/80 "2011-04-03T03:50:47Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The longer this story develops, the more it sounds like there was a nonviolent protest of Jones’ burning that was infiltrated by a small number of violent Taliban-type lunatics who wanted to rampage and kill people. If you think Jones has any responsibility, that would seem to reduce it by a great deal. One should ask where were all the peaceful demonstrators when a small number of violent members went nuts? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-jones-his-moral-responsibility-for-death-or-the-cleansing-effect-of-the-intermediary/576899.md?page=5)