# Pastor to the AR 15 Protester.. Sickening **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 28, 2009, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004 "2009-08-28T06:27:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/81 "2009-09-01T18:08:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Tumbles? You mean spins? All rifle rounds do that. It turns end over end upon striking the [target.](http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Does_the_m-16_bullet_tumble) ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/82 "2009-09-01T21:10:30Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I believe the round tumbles, making a larger wound. Again, this is just AIUI - but I believe the tumbling only happens at the far end of the round’s range, when the round slows and the spin imparted by the rifling grooves no longer is enough to counteract the forces affecting the bullet as it travels through the air. The tumbling at what for a larger round would be a relatively short range is one of the things that makes the .223 round such a comparatively short ranged round. Granted a tumbling round will do a lot more damage than one going in point first, in line with the direction of travel. But the odds of hitting with a tumbling round are much, much lower, and I don’t think anyone seriously planning for a weapon would want to count of accuracy with a round that has started tumbling. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/83 "2009-09-01T21:23:45Z")
AIUI? From the article I linked to, it tumbles on impact, tearing up more meat that if it just punched in straight. I didn’t see how it would be accurate if it were tumbling end over end through the entire trajectory instead of spinning. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/84 "2009-09-01T21:36:02Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Wait. Why would a deaf cobra stop up its ear so it couldn’t hear the snake-charmers’ song? I mean, it’s _already_ deaf, right? For that matter cobras, like all snakes, have no ear openings to stop up in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/85 "2009-09-01T21:45:54Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’ve heard this often, but find it hard to swallow whole. Not a drop of snark intended, but from whence? An abdomen wound might eventually kill, but the victim might have considerable time to pull a trigger, and also no longer be constrained by issues of survival. Perhaps it is a disturbin’ legend? Basically, the reasoning I’d heard was that in most armies what happens when a soldier is wounded is that one or more of his squadmates, as the situation continues, will work to aid that soldier, in stead of pressing the enemy. This general wisdom is limited by several real world considerations: AIUI, in short engagements, such as close range ambushes which were common in Vietnam’s jungle, this isn’t how people behave - things are too close and happening too quickly; secondly while professional armies will often behave in this manner, guerrilla armies often wont. However, a quick look at the Wikipedia article for the [M16](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle) doesn’t touch on the wounding, but other issues. I may have been passing on an urban legend, after all. > [@](#): > > Keep in mind, the soldier in the field throughout recent history has always demanded a weapon that makes the other patriot dead, dead, dead, and right now. Agreed, 100%. And you can still find people _today_ complaining about the M16 and it’s derived weapons as being wounding weapons, not killing weapons. Let alone back when the M16 was first selected for use by the US Military. On preview: **carnivorousplant** - First off - when I answered, I hadn’t yet seen your link - I’d not read that far down the thread, sorry. Secondly, it seems to me that any comment about the characteristics of a [spitzer bullet](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spitzer_%28bullet%29) is a way to describe the behavior of _any_ pointed rifle bullet, not simply the .223 round for the M16. (For example, this [photograph](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:9.3X62-30-06-8X57-6.5X55-308.JPG) is of several .30 caliber rounds all seem to exhibit some of the pointing that defines a spitzer round.) ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/86 "2009-09-01T21:46:47Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’ve done a moderate amount of dabbling, Bible-wise, but don’t recall anything about snails at all, much less salting them. Perhaps it was a later addition from the Catholic Church? > > Yes, that’s it, its a Pope Urban legend! Wow. Keith Urban, the singer, is the Pope now? Who knew! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/87 "2009-09-01T21:50:20Z")
[QUOTE=Spiffy Biffy] For that matter cobras, like all snakes, have no ear openings to stop up in the first place. [/QUOTE] Nonsense! In _The Adventure of the Speckled Band_, the murderer trained a deadly snake to respond to a high-pitched whistle. Regretably, Dr. Watson neglected to advise as to the precise species of snake with such peculiar markings and an instaneously fatal venom, but we may rest assured, given the source, that such a snake exists! As it would be quite impossible for a snake to respond thusly if it were deaf, we may confidently consider the matter closed! More tea? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/88 "2009-09-01T21:54:59Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Just on the off chance that this was not a whoosh (I sure hope it was), “high-powered” is a giant category of rifles which includes most common hunting cartridges for large game. (When was the last time anyone was murdered with a .458 Win Mag or a .338 Lapua?) Sorry, I realize maybe two people here will even know what the hell I’m talking about. Anyway, rifles in general account for a very small proportion of all crimes committed with firearms, and rifles like AR-15s (which are NOT “high-powered” in any way; in fact, many veterans who served with the Garand or the M14 and then had to adopt the M16 bitched about the .223 round being too weak, and they continue to do so) are an even smaller percentage. > > The people who oppose “assault weapons” are pretty much to a man (or woman - actually the anti-gun movement is spearheaded by women) people who know absolutely NOTHING about rifles. 458 = elephant gun. Once I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas, I’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/89 "2009-09-01T22:08:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Nonsense! In _The Adventure of the Speckled Band_, the murderer trained a deadly snake to respond to a high-pitched whistle. Regretably, Dr. Watson neglected to advise as to the precise species of snake with such peculiar markings and an instaneously fatal venom, but we may rest assured, given the source, that such a snake exists! As it would be quite impossible for a snake to respond thusly if it were deaf, we may confidently consider the matter closed! > > More tea? Snakes can hear. They just have no opening on the outside thus no ear canal to that we could block. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/90 "2009-09-01T22:08:47Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > …Agreed, 100%. And you can still find people _today_ complaining about the M16 and it’s derived weapons as being wounding weapons, not killing weapons. Let alone back when the M16 was first selected for use by the US Military… By coincidence, I was friends with Eugene Stoner’s son, who developed the M-16, and asked him what he knew on this point. He and his father were not close, by any stretch, but he was adamant that his father was intent on developing a killing weapon, and such conjectures infuriated him no end. What Mr. Stoner was about was creating an automatic weapon that used all of its recoil in ejecting and reloading the next round, thus minimizing an automatic weapons strong tendency to lurch away from the targeted alignment, like a Thompson’s famous insistence on climbing up and right with each round. The point being that the soldier could fire several _targeted_ rounds in close succession. To accomplish this, he exactingly calibrated how much energy was required to work the mechanism, leaving as little excess recoil as possible. In testing, his specifications were followed and his nasty little gadget worked very well. But deployed, a cheaper variety of ammo was substituted, and the exacting tolerances of the design were compromised, hence, the “jammin’ Jenny” nickname. And Mr Stoner (who I did not know, and probably would not have liked…) got an undeserved reputation, largely due to the efforts of military numbskulls to deflect responsibility. The history of American military procurement is a grim and infuriating story, and this is merely another example. God speed the day such procurement is but another folly of history, long forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/91 "2009-09-01T22:15:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > The history of American military procurement is a grim and infuriating story, and this is merely another example. God speed the day such procurement is but another folly of history, long forgotten. Amen! I could go on about situations I was directly familiar with, myself. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/92 "2009-09-02T00:08:16Z")
> [@OtakuLoki](#): > > On preview: **carnivorousplant** - First off - when I answered, I hadn’t yet seen your link - I’d not read that far down the thread, sorry. Thanks, OtakuLoki. Speaking of wounding rather than killing, what a copper jacket on military rounds? Does it work better in an automatic weapon than lead? ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/93 "2009-09-02T00:25:37Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Speaking of wounding rather than killing, what a copper jacket on military rounds? Does it work better in an automatic weapon than lead? No clue, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/94 "2009-09-02T02:10:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > … copper jacket on military rounds? … [**F** ull **M** etal **J** ackets and tumbling FMJs.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_metal_jacket_bullet) CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/95 "2009-09-02T02:34:54Z")
Thanks, CMC. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/96 "2009-09-02T03:10:52Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Thereby proving my point far better than I ever could - you don’t know what on earth you’re talking about. If you think the difference between a full-power cartridge and an intermediate cartridge is “minutia,” then you truly know nothing about rifles. What I know is that your SOP for this sort of debate is to try to disqualify your opponents by crowing about how they don’t know about some irrelevant technical difference between this weapon and that. You don’t limit yourself to situations where the minutiae you are babbling about has some relevance to the specific point being made by your opponent in the debate (as here). One minute \*\*foolsguinea \*\*is making some joke about “high powered rifles” (probably as a whoosh, as you acknowledge) and the next minute you, like the obsessed wind up toy that you are in these debates, are wittering on about .458 Win Mags, .338 Lapuas, AR-15s, Garands, M14’s, M16’s .223’s, the difference between a full-power cartridge and an intermediate cartridge rounds etc. I’m sure that the detail you outline is vewy, vewy important in certain situations, but in the context of gun debates it is only relevant a very limited proportion of the time. You are indignant about being accused of being obsessed with minutiae but you should stand outside the debate as I am doing and see how funny you look from over here. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/97 "2009-09-02T03:33:41Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > I’m sure that the detail you outline is vewy, vewy important in certain situations, Ridicule as an element of debate, or a Barbara Walters imitation? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/98 "2009-09-02T03:42:21Z")
If the M-16 round did everything it is accused of doing, it would violate about 3 sections of the Geneva Convention. Since the US hasn’t been nailed for violating that agreement **by using this ammo** , we can assume that it doesn’t do what people says it does. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/99 "2009-09-02T05:35:34Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > What I know is that your SOP for this sort of debate is to try to disqualify your opponents by crowing about how they don’t know about some irrelevant technical difference between this weapon and that. You don’t limit yourself to situations where the minutiae you are babbling about has some relevance to the specific point being made by your opponent in the debate (as here). One minute \*\*foolsguinea \*\*is making some joke about “high powered rifles” (probably as a whoosh, as you acknowledge) and the next minute you, like the obsessed wind up toy that you are in these debates, are wittering on about .458 Win Mags, .338 Lapuas, AR-15s, Garands, M14’s, M16’s .223’s, the difference between a full-power cartridge and an intermediate cartridge rounds etc. > > I’m sure that the detail you outline is vewy, vewy important in certain situations, but in the context of gun debates it is only relevant a very limited proportion of the time. > > You are indignant about being accused of being obsessed with minutiae but you should stand outside the debate as I am doing and see how funny you look from over here. Fuck that shit, people are trying to create unjust laws by way of misdirection, obfuscating the truth and exploiting people’s ignorance, and I am not having it. I am simply not having it. This site is supposedly about fighting ignorance and that is what I’m going to do. ---
**Author:** ![MagicEyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@MagicEyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MagicEyes)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2009, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004/100 "2009-09-02T06:09:56Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > “Mod wants to use my sig” is a pretty lame sig. Thanks for nothin’. I think you should go with “A jackbooted mod stole my sig.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pastor-to-the-ar-15-protester-sickening/508004.md?page=6)