# Pat Buchanon..Wow. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343 "2004-05-16T00:32:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/1 "2004-05-16T00:32:56Z")
Now…I was never a fan of Pat but I have to say this man speaks the righteous truth… > [@](#): > > With pictures of the sadistic sexual abuse of Iraqis in Abu Ghraib prison still spilling out onto the front pages, it is not too early to draw some conclusions. > > The neoconservative hour is over. All the blather about “empire,” our “unipolar moment,” “Pax Americana” and “benevolent global hegemony” will be quietly put on a shelf and forgotten as infantile prattle. > > America is not going to fight a five- or 10-year war in Iraq. Nor will we be launching any new invasions soon. The retreat of American empire, begun at Fallujah, is underway. > **[A Time for Truth - Antiwar.com Original](https://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2004/05/12/a-time-for-truth/)** > > With pictures of the sadistic sexual abuse of Iraqis in Abu Ghraib prison still spilling out onto the front pages, it is not too early to draw some - Patrick J. Buchanan for Antiwar.com Original Your opinions. Is he wrong? Of course he isn’t. We need to get the United States back on the course we were on for 200+ years. Before Bushco usurped power and veered us off course. Will Pat’s thoughts do any damage to Bush’s reelection hopes? If there is a God. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/2 "2004-05-16T00:39:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Now…I was never a fan of Pat but I have to say this man speaks the righteous truth… “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” Is Pat helps bring down the neocons, that’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/3 "2004-05-16T00:45:35Z")
Well, I generally think Pat Buchanan is a fascist loon, but I think he has the right idea for an exit strategy. Get elections held, then get the fuck out of there. Sorry, George. I’m gonna vote for you this November, but you screwed the pooch on this one (and with Ashcroft, but that’s another rant entirely!) ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/4 "2004-05-16T01:23:26Z")
This is a sign of how f’ed up the Bush Administration is – compared to the Bushies, Pat Buchanan makes sense… :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/5 "2004-05-16T01:28:26Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Is he wrong? > > Of course he isn’t. We need to get the United States back on the course we were on for 200+ years. Before Bushco usurped power and veered us off course. Yeah, because you know, before the Bush administration, the US never was expansionist or felt itself to have a sacred mission or anything like that. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/6 "2004-05-16T01:31:46Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > Now…I was never a fan of Pat but I have to say this man speaks the righteous truth… > [@rjung](#): > > compared to the Bushies, Pat Buchanan makes sense… Welcom to the Dark Side. Things are really that bad here. Not as bad as you seem to’ve heard at least. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/7 "2004-05-16T01:49:26Z")
**Reeder** , you’d heap praise on Satan himself if he was George Bush’s enemy. Oh, wait, you just did. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/8 "2004-05-16T01:59:54Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > **Reeder** , you’d heap praise on Satan himself if he was George Bush’s enemy. > > Oh, wait, you just did. :rolleyes: I take you are a pubbie… I’d be scared too. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/9 "2004-05-16T02:02:12Z")
What would Pat Buchannon do as President that could be worse than what George Bush is doing now? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/10 "2004-05-16T02:04:17Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > **Reeder** , you’d heap praise on Satan himself if he was George Bush’s enemy. > > Oh, wait, you just did. :rolleyes: Now wait just a minute. Before Buchanan went into la-la land by thinking he could get elected on the Facist ticket, he used to do commentary on John MacLaughlin. From time to time he made perfectly valid points; he was half-way decent at assessing relative political positions, for example. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. And I hardly think **Reeder** ’s saying that Buchanan’s not wrong here amounts to heaping praise on him. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/11 "2004-05-16T02:06:24Z")
I am, **Reeder**. I don’t know if you noticed it though, but ol’ Pat isn’t a member in good standing of the conservative movement these days. He has a checkmark on his report card saying he doesn’t work and play well with others. He tends to hand out with some other misfits in the A/V room and take potshots at the class president. Nobody much pays attention to him, though. Unless they’re a misfit too. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/12 "2004-05-16T02:16:52Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t know if you noticed it though, but ol’ Pat isn’t a member in good standing of the conservative movement these days. Neither is Duhbya with real conservatives. Isn’t he called…George “I never saw a spending bill I didn’t like” Bush by them? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/13 "2004-05-16T02:20:49Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > He tends to hand out with some other misfits in the A/V room and take potshots at the class president. Nobody much pays attention to him, though. Those A/V types tend to be the ones with both brains and technical skills, while the class presidents so often seem to go on to be slimy used-car salesmen, or even slimier politicians. QtM, MD and high school misfit, thank you very much, _Mister_ Moto ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/14 "2004-05-16T02:34:16Z")
Sorry if I offended with a stretched analogy, **QtM**. My point about Buchanan is true, though. If the criticism were coming from the folks over at _National Review_, it would be more worrying. And just as I don’t get to decide what “real” liberals are, **Reeder** doesn’t get to decide what a “real” conservative is. Political labels in America usually are self-applied. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/15 "2004-05-16T02:47:32Z")
> [@Blalron](#): > > What would Pat Buchannon do as President that could be worse than what George Bush is doing now? :eek: Probably lots of stuff, but not in relation to Iraq. I also think it is really scary when Pat makes better policy suggestions than any Administration. Maybe he should run again 🙂 I wouldn’t vote for him, but I’d send money. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/16 "2004-05-16T03:43:42Z")
> [@](#): > > The neoconservative hour is over. All the blather about “empire,” our “unipolar moment,” “Pax Americana” and “benevolent global hegemony” will be quietly put on a shelf and forgotten as infantile prattle. Right, but for the wrong reasons. This could never happen not because of the scandals in Iraq, but because the age of Imperialism is long dead and gone. The international community is established, and nations can no longer be dealt with in Imperial manners. Nations are contained and restrained by international law, and those that don’t comply get weakened. The age when a superpower could say or do anything and back it with their might and industry is past, and we have to come to the table with “lesser” nations as equals. They may dream of an American age, but if that happens, it will be via society and culture spreading through mass media, not government and military. Put in lay terms, Nike has more influence internationally than the Feds do. The government can not control the press, can not contain information, can not influence behavior. The military can not enforce dictums or dictate policy. The people of the world know too much too quickly, and they won’t put up with this kind of shit. We can win battles and topple governments constantly, but we will still lose the war, because we are fighting on terms centuries old. Even the age of Nationalism is over. It ended with Vietnam, and its death knell was that of the Berlin Wall. The current government does not understand all of this. They view their position of power as one of domination, when all it truly does is unite people against it. The more it tries, the faster it loses. You can not win. The tighter you close your fist, the more systems will slip through your fingers. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/17 "2004-05-16T03:51:54Z")
[Andrew Sullivan](http://www.andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2004_05_09_dish_archive.html#108415840160364769) discusses the issue and some of it’s implications. "The one anti-war argument that, in retrospect, I did not take seriously enough was a simple one. It was that this war was noble and defensible but that this administration was simply too incompetent and arrogant to carry it out effectively. To have humiliated the United States by presenting _ **false** _ and _ **misleading** _ intelligence and then to have allowed something like Abu Ghraib to happen - after a year of other, compounded errors - is unforgivable." ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/18 "2004-05-16T03:55:09Z")
[QUOTE=Zagadka] Even the age of Nationalism is over. It ended with Vietnam, and its death knell was that of the Berlin Wall. [QUOTE] I don’t understand this statement. The Vietmnam war was the successful struggle for Vietnamise self determination in the face of outside ideological opperession, while the fall of the Berlin wall was the beginning of the reunification of the German People, 1870 and Bismark all over again. If anything, they mark the _re-emergence_ of nationalism, ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/19 "2004-05-16T04:02:54Z")
You know, I was wondering why I rarely see Pat Buchanan on TV anymore, and I guess I now know why. He isn’t talking from the approved script. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343/20 "2004-05-16T04:15:12Z")
> [@](#): > > **Zagadka** : The government can not control the press, can not contain information, can not influence behavior. The military can not enforce dictums or dictate policy. Sadly, I disagree with you. All of these things can and have happened for at least short periods. The government controls the press by not allowing access. That happens at Dover Airforce Base. It happens in Iraq. It happens when they do not release all photos of abuse to the press. These are just corrent examples. During my lifetime I have watched the news and seen members of our armed services storm onto a university campus in Ohio and kill four students. Some where just on their way to class. I have seen the armed tanks go down the main streets of Nashville. Things can change so quickly. Just last night on Bill Moyers, a woman discussed the potential for rising nationalism in this country because of the blending of religion with patriotism in the extreme. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-buchanon-wow/245343.md?page=2)