# Pat, I'd like to buy a shift key ... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230 "2009-11-11T21:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/101 "2009-11-13T20:59:35Z")
On a similar note, the only reason men like to have deep, meaningful conversations with women is that when done right they’ll eventually lead to shallow, meaningless discussions about each other’s underwear. Content is just something you wade through to get to the style. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/102 "2009-11-13T21:31:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Again, I think you’re missing the point about the actual purpose of this pitting. Neither **Contrapuntal** nor anybody else came in here decrying “youth today” for making a good-faith effort to use standard orthography but inadvertently committing a few errors now and then. The basic thrust of **dhkendall** ’s OP was, “These damn kids today don’t know or follow the rules of spelling/capitalization/grammar that I do.” So, I went through and pointed out every place that \*\*dhkendall \*\*didn’t follow the standard rules. I then proceeded to do the same to one or two other people who appeared to agree with him. If you don’t see why that’s funny, you need to get out more. > [@](#): > > That doesn’t in any way disqualify us from expressing justified disdain for self-absorbed lazy little wankers who can’t even be bothered to **try** to use proper orthography in the first place. Oh, it certainly doesn’t disqualify you–it just opens you up to being made fun of for failing to follow the rules you think are so essential for communication to take place. Really, IMO, it’s a case of “dish it but can’t take it.” > [@](#): > > If you do understand that difference but are just trying to pretend that it doesn’t exist so you can keep gloating about a possibly misplaced comma and ignoring the real topic of the thread, then you’re simply dishonest and trollish. Aw, calling someone whom you don’t like a troll! How original \*\*and \*\*clever. > [@](#): > > I think you must have meant to say either “doing what they themselves do” or “failing to do what they themselves fail to do”. Please do try to keep up. [I already corrected myself](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11775529&postcount=88) after Chessic Sense caught the error. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > And if you could be arsed to read the thread you would realize that the question has been asked and answered. You answered the actual question. But you missed the trees for the forest (so to speak)–you \*\*were not \*\*being asked what you meant by the question, but rather having it pointed out to you that you’d made yet another grammatical error. It was not “what was the meaning of XYZ” but “didn’t you intend to say ZYX instead of XYZ.” Seriously, do I have to pull up the whole conversation for you before you get it? > [@](#): > > And then there is total failure, as in your total failure to answer the question I have asked you twice now. Which question was that? Your posts are so tedious, my eyes just keep glazing over. > [@](#): > > Pithy. Thanks, I thought so, too. If you thought that was an insult, you really need to spend more time with your dictionary. Although I think that’s already been made clear by your confusion about “bitchy.” > [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, you are, but only for stick-poking purposes, not because you really are a prescriptivist. > > What you really are is either stupid or a troll, or both. Yes! Accused of trolling twice in the space of a handful of posts. I must be on a roll today. And no, I’m not being a prescriptivist. I am pointing out places where people who are arguing for standards fail to live up to them, but I am not saying that they must adhere to those rules. They’re perfectly within their rights to say, “So? I don’t care.” But that would tend to undermine the arguments they’re trying to make, so instead they just sputter. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > shallow, meaningless discussions about each other’s underwear Hey! I’ll have you know that I have very meaningful discussions about my underwear, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/103 "2009-11-13T21:36:22Z")
> [@dianag](#): > > hmm, i suppose that remark could be considered snotty, especially to an illiterate oaf, but i disagree that it’s ignorant. > > Style \*is \*content. It conveys information. Yours conveys that you are an oaf. Perhaps reasonably literate, but with a chip on your shoulder so heavy it makes your knuckles drag. you are the one who is favor of censorship, not me censorship on the intraweb-nets! What is this? Berlin circa 1939? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/104 "2009-11-13T21:41:30Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > you are the one who is favor of censorship, not me > > censorship on the intraweb-nets! What is this? Berlin circa 1939? Thank God. Finally. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/105 "2009-11-13T21:59:49Z")
Godwin and Gaudere, together at last. ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/106 "2009-11-13T23:44:43Z")
Yes, it’s a well-known fact that Hitler was a terrible speller! (He spelled “woman” “frau” - I mean how bad is that?) Does the fact that Godwin’s Law has been invoked now mean the thread is done? ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/107 "2009-11-13T23:51:27Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > The basic thrust of **dhkendall** ’s OP was, “These damn kids today don’t know or follow the rules of spelling/capitalization/grammar that I do.” So, I went through and pointed out every place that \*\*dhkendall \*\*didn’t follow the standard rules. I then proceeded to do the same to one or two other people who appeared to agree with him. If you don’t see why that’s funny, you need to get out more. **dhkendall** did not mind, and found your post tweaking my nose (glass houses, neighbor, glass houses) somewhat humourous and wasn’t taken in offense. Never taken offense with anyone (yet) and I treat others in the Pit how I’d like to be treated, so that’s probably why I’m not getting my knickers in a knot here. That’s what I like about the Dope, we can argue about things, heatedly even, but in the end we’d still go to the bar and have a drink with the other Doper. I feel I could do that with you SFG, since we treated each other with respect, and the way you pointed out that I couldn’t “cast the first stone” I found was presented fairly. This is one of the very few boards I read because of that. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/108 "2009-11-14T00:21:17Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > Yes, it’s a well-known fact that Hitler was a terrible speller! (He spelled “woman” “frau” - I mean how bad is that?) > > Does the fact that Godwin’s Law has been invoked now mean the thread is done? I hereby propose **Attack’s** Law. Once a thread has been Godwinized, you no longer have to look at it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/109 "2009-11-14T03:13:42Z")
> [@Shot From Guns](#): > > The basic thrust of dhkendall’s OP was, “These damn kids today don’t know or follow the rules of spelling/capitalization/grammar that I do.” No, his basic thrust was annoyance that many of them have deliberately **given up** on trying to follow standard rules of orthography **at all** : > [@dhkendall](#): > > And, the part that really got my dander up, in the above-linked thread […] It’s like being reminded that two plus two is four, not five, and giving “that’s OK, people know what I mean and I don’t want to bother fixing it” as a response and continue blissfully and blatantly being wrong. > [@Shot From Guns](#): > > So, I went through and pointed out every place that **dhkendall** didn’t follow the standard rules. I then proceeded to do the same to one or two other people who appeared to agree with him. If you don’t see why that’s funny, you need to get out more. It’s not funny because it completely misses the point of what’s actually being complained about in this Pitting. **dhkendall** , and the other posters whose occasional writing mistakes you’re so smug about having nitpicked, are not deliberately abandoning the effort to follow standard rules of orthography because they can’t be arsed to do so. Instead, they (like all the rest of us “prescriptivists” here) are trying to write in accordance with orthographic standards but occasionally making mistakes. If you can’t see why that makes your attempts at nitpicking minor errors irrelevant and pointless, then you’re the one who needs to get out more. > [@Shot From Guns](#): > > it just opens you up to being made fun of for failing to follow the rules you think are so essential for communication to take place. […] I am pointing out places where people who are arguing for standards fail to live up to them […] I’ll try one more time to explain this to you: There is a significant difference between (1) making occasional mistakes in applying the rules that you follow, and (2) arrogantly and lazily deciding that you don’t even need to try to follow those rules at all. People who complain about other people’s indulging in the latter are not being inconsistent or hypocritical if they themselves sometimes happen to commit the former. Is this really so difficult for you to understand? > [@Shot From Guns](#): > > Aw, calling someone whom you don’t like a troll! How original and clever. It’s not that I don’t like you, it’s that I’ve noticed your persistence in (apparently deliberately) misunderstanding what this thread is about. If you’re not in fact a troll, then you must be really stupid. I lean towards the “troll” explanation because you seem so gleeful about being able to use your misinterpretations of other posters’ complaints in order to “poke them with sticks”, as you put it. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/110 "2009-11-14T14:56:08Z")
[quote=“Kimstu, post:109, topic:517230”] **dhkendall** , and the other posters whose occasional writing mistakes you’re so smug about having nitpicked, are not deliberately abandoning the effort to follow standard rules of orthography because they can’t be arsed to do so. Instead, they (like all the rest of us “prescriptivists” here) are trying to write in accordance with orthographic standards but occasionally making mistakes. i think that you are missing his point. read your paragraph above. why couldn’t you have gone back before you sent this and corrected the mistakes that you made? would you have submitted that to a magazine without making sure there were no errors in it first? of course not. the “occassional” errors here are not occassional. they are rampant it is nice that you know so many big words, george will, but please make sure you don’t leave out any little ones. they are important too ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/111 "2009-11-14T15:10:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Ladies and gentlemen, _Gaudere’s War_. > [@Polycarp](#): > > That was an Extentialist play, right? > [@DianaG](#): > > a chip on your shoulder so heavy it makes your knuckles drag. > [@dhkendall](#): > > Yes, it’s a well-known fact that Hitler was a terrible speller! (He spelled “woman” “frau” - I mean how bad is that?) This thread is largely insane, but there are some sparkling diamonds in the pile! ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/112 "2009-11-14T15:57:12Z")
[quote=“koufax, post:110, topic:517230”] > [@Kimstu](#): > > **dhkendall** , and the other posters whose occasional writing mistakes you’re so smug about having nitpicked, are not deliberately abandoning the effort to follow standard rules of orthography because they can’t be arsed to do so. Instead, they (like all the rest of us “prescriptivists” here) are trying to write in accordance with orthographic standards but occasionally making mistakes. > > i think that you are missing his point. read your paragraph above. why couldn’t you have gone back before you sent this and corrected the mistakes that you made? > > would you have submitted that to a magazine without making sure there were no errors in it first? of course not. > > the “occassional” errors here are not occassional. they are rampant > > it is nice that you know so many big words, george will, but please make sure you don’t leave out any little ones. they are important too This is extremely hard to read. I have to literally sit and peer at the screen focusing on one word at a time. It’s weird that something so simple makes such a big difference, but it really does. Grammatical errors are unfortunate too of course, but tbh my brain usually corrects them automatically without me even noticing. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/113 "2009-11-14T16:46:09Z")
[quote=“koufax, post:110, topic:517230”] > [@Kimstu](#): > > **dhkendall** , and the other posters whose occasional writing mistakes you’re so smug about having nitpicked, are not deliberately abandoning the effort to follow standard rules of orthography because they can’t be arsed to do so. Instead, they (like all the rest of us “prescriptivists” here) are trying to write in accordance with orthographic standards but occasionally making mistakes. > > i think that you are missing his point. read your paragraph above. why couldn’t you have gone back before you sent this and corrected the mistakes that you made? > > would you have submitted that to a magazine without making sure there were no errors in it first? of course not. > > the “occassional” errors here are not occassional. they are rampant > > it is nice that you know so many big words, george will, but please make sure you don’t leave out any little ones. they are important too I love this post! Are you trying to make the point that the reason you were unable to absorb anything Kimstu said above was because of grammatical errors? I’m not sure how that advances your case. The errors were so detrimental to meaning that you couldn’t grasp what Kimstu was saying at all? If that were the case, doesn’t it behoove us to at least try to accommodate the people we’re writing for? Isn’t there something wrong with saying, “it’s more convenient for me so I don’t care that what I’m writing is more difficult to read than it needs to be”? Isn’t that on a different level from, “oops, I could have worded that better.” And if you want hypocrisy, why are descriptivists so intolerant of dissent and so insistent that everyone conform to their view. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/114 "2009-11-14T18:32:47Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > I love this post! Are you trying to make the point that the reason you were unable to absorb anything Kimstu said above was because of grammatical errors? I’m not sure how that advances your case. The errors were so detrimental to meaning that you couldn’t grasp what Kimstu was saying at all? i understood completely what she was trying to convey i was simply pointing out that she was too lazy to check if she had made any errors (which she had) just as i am too lazy to hit the shift key or put a period at the end of this sentence yet she and the other grammar nags here seem to think that HOW you write is more important than the idea that you are trying to convey ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/115 "2009-11-14T18:52:06Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > i understood completely what she was trying to convey > > i was simply pointing out that she was too lazy to check if she had made any errors (which she had) just as i am too lazy to hit the shift key or put a period at the end of this sentence > > yet she and the other grammar nags here seem to think that HOW you write is more important than the idea that you are trying to convey How the fuck can you be too “lazy” to hit the shift button? It’s a single button, once per sentence. How do you even get up in the morning if you’re that lazy? Every post must be a herculean effort on your part. There’s a ton of other places you could save precious keystrokes, you know, and your posts would still be readable with some effort. Have you considered writing “u” instead of “you”, and “r” instead of “are”? You could triple your productivity right there! Why are you doing one thing, but not the other? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2009, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/116 "2009-11-14T22:59:10Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > How the fuck can you be too “lazy” to hit the shift button? It’s a single button, once per sentence. How do you even get up in the morning if you’re that lazy? Every post must be a herculean effort on your part. > > There’s a ton of other places you could save precious keystrokes, you know, and your posts would still be readable with some effort. Have you considered writing “u” instead of “you”, and “r” instead of “are”? You could triple your productivity right there! Why are you doing one thing, but not the other? Please don’t encourage him. His logic will soon drive him to minimalist heights of brevity (a.k.a. hills). ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/117 "2009-11-15T05:10:23Z")
**koufax** , like it or not, proper capitalization and punctuation is important and does convey meaning. As the old joke goes, it’s the difference between “I helped my brother Jack off a horse” and… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/118 "2009-11-15T08:52:32Z")
I dunno about capitalization and spelling, but some citizens hereabouts quote like my granny. Also, when I see anyone write “anymore” I want to resort to a big stick with a nail in it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/119 "2009-11-15T09:10:44Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Also, when I see anyone write “anymore” I want to resort to a big stick with a nail in it. Especially when what they really mean is “These days…” or “Nowadays…” e.g., “Anymore, i go to Target instead of Wal-Mart.” I realize that this has become almost standard usage in some places, but i think it sounds retarded. I had never heard it before i came to the United States. ---
**Author:** ![fubbleskag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fubbleskag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fubbleskag)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/120 "2009-11-15T13:04:27Z")
my wife is from Indiana, and I used to give her a rough time about this usage of ‘anymore’ as well, but it’s apparently been around for quite some time - and you can blame the Scots and/or Irish, it seems [http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anymore](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anymore) > [@](#): > > Regional Note: In standard American English the word anymore is often found in negative sentences: They don’t live here anymore. But anymore is widely used in regional American English in positive sentences with the meaning “nowadays”: “We use a gas stove anymore” (Oklahoma informant in DARE). Its use, which appears to be spreading, is centered in the South Midland and Midwestern states, as well as in the Western states that received settlers from those areas. The earliest recorded examples are from Northern Ireland, where the positive use of anymore still occurs. > **[Penguin Random House](https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com?date=19980206)** > > Committed to publishing great books, connecting readers and authors globally, and spreading the love of reading. > [@](#): > > Usage critics often condemn this use, and also often think it is new, but it is found back to the 1850s in America, and becomes especially common after the 1930s. “Positive anymore,” as this is called, is also found in parts of Ireland, and some linguists have suggested that it is of Irish or Scots-Irish origin. > > In America, postive anymore is most frequent in the midland states and least frequent in New England, but has been spreading in recent years. Though dialectal, it is used by speakers of all educational levels. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230.md?page=7)