# Pat, I'd like to buy a shift key ... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230 "2009-11-11T21:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/121 "2009-11-15T18:04:42Z")
> [@fubbleskag](#): > > my wife is from Indiana, and I used to give her a rough time about this usage of ‘anymore’ as well, but it’s apparently been around for quite some time - and you can blame the Scots and/or Irish, it seems > > [Anymore - definition of anymore by The Free Dictionary](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anymore) > [http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19980206](http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19980206) I recognize that it has rather extended provenance, and i realize that i’ve lost the battle, but you’ll never convince me it sounds anything but uneducated. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/122 "2009-11-15T18:48:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > **koufax** , like it or not, proper capitalization and punctuation is important and does convey meaning. As the old joke goes, it’s the difference between “I helped my brother Jack off a horse” and… 😉 i helped my brother jack off a horse i helped my brother jack off of a horse ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/123 "2009-11-15T18:54:06Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > i helped my brother jack off a horse > > i helped my brother jack off of a horse So to save yourself the keystrokes to type two commas and a capital I, you instead type two extra letters and a space..? ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/124 "2009-11-15T19:27:50Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > So to save yourself the keystrokes to type two commas and a capital I, you instead type two extra letters and a space..? yes, i just timed it and i save .00000009 of a second doing it my way so it is ok with you to leave entire words (“of”) out of sentences which makes the sentence harder to understand, but not capitalizing makes you crazy? then why not just type: “Just helped brother Jack off horse.” at least when i don’t capitalize i make sure all the words are there so that the reader can understand what i am trying to say ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/125 "2009-11-15T19:33:06Z")
There’s no word missing from the sentence “I helped my brother, Jack, off a horse.” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/126 "2009-11-15T19:42:49Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You answered the actual question. But you missed the trees for the forest (so to speak)–you \*\*were not \*\*being asked what you meant by the question, but rather having it pointed out to you that you’d made yet another grammatical error. It was not “what was the meaning of XYZ” but “didn’t you intend to say ZYX instead of XYZ.” I thanked him for pointing out my error. I don’t know how I could have made it more clear. > [@](#): > > Seriously, do I have to pull up the whole conversation for you before you get it? You really are a dumbass, aren’t you? > [@](#): > > Which question was that? Your posts are so tedious, my eyes just keep glazing over. Then don’t fucking read them, you shit for brains troll. > [@](#): > > Thanks, I thought so, too. > > If you thought that was an insult, you really need to spend more time with your dictionary. Although I think that’s already been made clear by your confusion about “bitchy.” It was irony. And not how the kids these days mean it. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/127 "2009-11-15T20:03:20Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > There’s no word missing from the sentence “I helped my brother, Jack, off a horse.” of course there is , because the way you just wrote it, your meaning is that you just helped your brother murder a horse ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/128 "2009-11-15T20:17:16Z")
You must have mistaken me for someone else, I have no real interest in nitpicking the finer points of grammar. I’m not very good at it anyway. I was asking what your real reason is for refusing to use capital letters. Because we both know it can’t be laziness. Edit: And that second last period should have been a comma ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/129 "2009-11-15T22:00:03Z")
> [@koufax](#): > > of course there is , because the way you just wrote it, your meaning is that you just helped your brother murder a horse No. It’s **possible** to interpret the sentence “I helped my brother, Jack, off a horse.” in the way that you did (taking “off” as a verb, in the slangy sense of “murder”), but the rules of grammatical written English don’t **require** you to do so. This is because verbs like “to help” can in some cases correctly be followed only by an adverbial phrase with no intervening verb, as in the following examples: “I helped my mother out of her chair” is equivalent to “I helped my mother _get up_ out of her chair”. “The director helped the stumbling actress off the stage” is equivalent to “The director helped the stumbling actress _walk_ off the stage”. Although using the phrase “off of” to mean “off” is no longer considered an outright error in most American English usage, it certainly isn’t mandatory, as you seem to be trying to assert. There is nothing incorrect about using “I helped my brother off a horse” to mean “I helped my brother dismount from a horse”. Reasonable people can disagree on the finer details of how to apply the rules of standard orthography involving things like spelling, capitalization and punctuation. And of course, everybody makes inadvertent errors in orthography from time to time. It’s only stupid and/or lazy and/or arrogant people who use such disagreements and errors as their excuse to simply ignore rules of standard orthography altogether, and then resent being criticized for it. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/130 "2009-11-15T22:07:00Z")
I would be embarrassed to claim that I couldn’t comprehend a sentence because it lacked capitalization. That, to me, would show a remarkable lack of reading ability. [http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/jumbledWords/jumbledWords.html](http://www.echalk.co.uk/amusements/OpticalIllusions/jumbledWords/jumbledWords.html) I would accept the claim from someone new to reading. But from those who claim to be reasonably educated and who have been exposed to a lot of text? No. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/131 "2009-11-15T22:29:46Z")
No one is saying it’s impossible to comprehend. We’re saying it’s _harder_ to read than a properly formatted sentence. Also, the problem is mostly paragraph, not individual sentences. I have no issue with lack of capitalization in chatrooms, for example. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/132 "2009-11-15T22:39:13Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > We’re saying it’s _harder_ to read than a properly formatted sentence. Things written above a 3rd grade reading level are harder to read than Dick and Jane. Brains are flexible, if you allow them to be. ---
**Author:** ![BomTek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bomtek/32/21364_2.png) [@BomTek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BomTek)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/133 "2009-11-15T22:48:46Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I remember… a poster… who typed a lot of ellipses… in his text… for reasons that… escaped me… > The impression I was always left with was a person who has a slow sleepy voice that trailed off at random intervals or was frequently uncertain and hesitant about the very argument he was supposedly advancing. It literally tired me to read his work. I’m somewhat guilty of this. I try not to do it excessively (and I hope I’m not the one you’re talking about :)), but you could probably look through my past posts and find at least one ellipsis in each one. This thread is very meta, though. I’m loving it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/134 "2009-11-15T23:01:34Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I would be embarrassed to claim that I couldn’t comprehend a sentence because it lacked capitalization. That, to me, would show a remarkable lack of reading ability. As embarrassed as you’d be to claim that you’re too lazy to use the shift key? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/135 "2009-11-15T23:36:46Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > As embarrassed as you’d be to claim that you’re too lazy to use the shift key? Really? The one problem that I have is that the number keys are two far away when I try two onethreethreeseven speak. I used two be able two use numbers for letters, but now I’m two exhausted by the stretch from the home row. Maybe if I eight better, or had less six, I wouldn’t be so exhausted. tah tah four now Attack ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/136 "2009-11-16T00:01:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Things written above a 3rd grade reading level are harder to read than Dick and Jane. Brains are flexible, if you allow them to be. Sure, but people who demand that you flex your brain to adapt to their own personal orthographic conventions because they’re too lazy to use the standard conventions are not writing at a “higher level”. They’re merely being arrogant assholes. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/137 "2009-11-16T00:17:18Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Sure, but people who demand that you flex your brain to adapt to their own personal orthographic conventions because they’re too lazy to use the standard conventions are not writing at a “higher level”. They’re merely being arrogant assholes. Some people are permitted to be harder to read but others aren’t? Why is that? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/138 "2009-11-16T00:18:30Z")
> [@DianaG](#): > > As embarrassed as you’d be to claim that you’re too lazy to use the shift key? Really? One is admitting laziness. The other is claiming actual cognitive impairment and a sort of mental rigidity that’s much more embarrassing than mere laziness. So yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/139 "2009-11-16T01:02:59Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Some people are permitted to be harder to read but others aren’t? Why is that? Because making something harder to read by giving it more complex content is significantly different from making something harder to read by deliberately abandoning standard conventions for its formatting. It’s kind of like the difference between ballet and jaywalking. The former is an expression of skill within the recognized rules of a complex genre. The latter is merely a self-centered unilateral decision to abandon recognized rules of traffic for one’s own convenience, even if it causes inconvenience to others. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/140 "2009-11-16T01:03:37Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > “I helped my mother out of her chair” is equivalent to “I helped my mother _get up_ out of her chair”. > > “The director helped the stumbling actress off the stage” is equivalent to “The director helped the stumbling actress _walk_ off the stage”. > > Reasonable people can disagree on the finer details of how to apply the rules of standard orthography involving things like spelling, capitalization and punctuation. And of course, everybody makes inadvertent errors in orthography from time to time. It’s only stupid and/or lazy and/or arrogant people who use such disagreements and errors as their excuse to simply ignore rules of standard orthography altogether, and then resent being criticized for it. mom SOMETIMES uses a wheelchair for arthritis but is not permanently confined to the chair. if you help her with something (her cleaning or cooking for example) when she is not in the chair, you are NOT helping her get up and out of the chair. a director in the old west is helping an alcoholic actress who is arriving from the big city to star in his play off of the stagecoach, he is not helping her walk off the stage. you remind me of barney fife. always wearing a tie, always wearing a hat, always wearing his shiny holster with his perfectly cleaned gun (no bullets of course) making sure nobody jaywalks on main street even though traffic is always very light and there is only one traffic light. he constantly scolds andy that things are way too lax and the criminals are about to take over mayberry. this is a message board, barn…calm down [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230.md?page=8)