# Pat, I'd like to buy a shift key ... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230 "2009-11-11T21:14:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/161 "2009-11-16T20:38:28Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > It’s actually bullshit. There was no study that proved that. And it doesn’t even work in all cases. Hmm. But obviously some or all of us CAN read scrambled text extremely easily. I’d like to discuss that in another thread if you’re willing. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/162 "2009-11-16T20:53:05Z")
> [@Shot From Guns](#): > > I’m just making it clear that if you’re going to decry others’ failure to adhere to your standards, you’d better proof your posts before you submit them–or be prepared to get made fun of. You are evidently still either unable or unwilling to recognize the difference between decrying deliberate **refusals** to even attempt to follow orthographic rules, and decrying occasional inadvertent **errors** in following orthographic rules. It’s probably unwillingness rather than inability on your part, because by your own admission, what you’re doing is looking for opportunities to make fun of people, aka “poke them with sticks”. You don’t really care whether or not you have a logically consistent basis for your stick-poking. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/163 "2009-11-16T22:04:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Those of us who can remember all the way back to thirteen-cent first-class postage stamps definitely used “casual” writing in much of our communication, such as scribbling notes on the whiteboard on a friend’s door in a college dorm, leaving a note for a roommate, and many other contexts. The frequency of those notes aren’t even a comparable percentage next to the abundance of written communication that takes place today. Further, I’ll bet you’d be right pissed if someone came by and mocked you for your casualness when scribbling a note to your buddy on his dorm whiteboard. > [@](#): > > the only new thing about this generation’s version of it is that they’ve applied it primarily to **written** rather than spoken language, due to the dominance of electronic text media. > > The beef here is about kids (or anybody else) participating in a medium where the primary dialect is standard written English and declaring that they’re not even going to bother trying to follow its orthographic conventions. If people are going to insist on writing kidspeak in a forum where a more formal written dialect is the accepted norm, they shouldn’t whine about getting flamed for it. The StraightDope is an anomaly and a hold-out to the old ways. However, message boards _are_ a casual form of communication. Writing on one with utmost seriousness is usually the incorrect voice. It makes sense that people who treat the medium appropriately are confused and annoyed when we “correct” their behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/164 "2009-11-16T22:08:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Hmm. But obviously some or all of us CAN read scrambled text extremely easily. I’d like to discuss that in another thread if you’re willing. In the example given in the standard email that gets circulated, yes, it’s easy to read. But it doesn’t work for all words. There have been threads debunking it on the SDMB before. The [Snopes page on it](http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/cambridge.asp) lists it as Undetermined. (Had there really been a study, surely it would be easy to verify.) > [@Kimstu](#): > > You are evidently still either unable or unwilling to recognize the difference between decrying deliberate **refusals** to even attempt to follow orthographic rules, and decrying occasional inadvertent **errors** in following orthographic rules. Compare and contrast: [ul][li]People who don’t use what I consider to be proper capitalization, punctuation, and grammar are lazy/inconsiderate![/li][li]In your post about how people who don’t use proper capitalization, punctuation, and grammar are lazy/inconsiderate, you made the following errors in capitalization, punctuation, and/or grammar.[/ul][/li] If you don’t understand the distinction (nor why the latter is an amusing reply to the former), there’s not much more I can say to you that isn’t going to go straight over your head, except perhaps to offer you a nice shiny gold star sticker to affix to your monitor for not literally shitting your pants. (Well, you might have, but from this distance I at least maintain reasonable doubt.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/165 "2009-11-17T00:31:18Z")
> [@Shot From Guns](#): > > In your post about how people who don’t use proper capitalization, punctuation, and grammar are lazy/inconsiderate, you made the following errors in capitalization, punctuation, and/or grammar. :rolleyes: Once again: Making occasional inadvertent errors in following standard conventions about capitalization, punctuation, and/or grammar is not the same thing as deliberately refusing even to try to follow standard conventions about capitalization, punctuation, and/or grammar. Therefore, people who do the former are not being inconsistent or hypocritical when they complain about other people doing the latter. As I said, it’s hard to believe that you are actually failing to understand this simple and crucial point, even after repeated explanations, rather than just deliberately choosing to ignore it so you can go on with your “stick-poking”. If you just enjoy stick-poking for its own sake and don’t need to have a logically consistent basis for it, fine, knock yourself out. I’m simply pointing out to you that the illusory inconsistency or hypocrisy that you’re claiming as the justification for your stick-poking in this case does not actually exist. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/166 "2009-11-17T00:40:08Z")
> [@HFS7G](#): > > The StraightDope is an anomaly and a hold-out to the old ways. However, message boards are a casual form of communication. Writing on one with utmost seriousness is usually the incorrect voice. It makes sense that people who treat the medium appropriately are confused and annoyed when we “correct” their behavior. But nobody here is going around “correcting” the behavior of posters on other, more casual message boards. Are you saying that “kidspeak” posters here are just too dumb to notice that the standard written dialect on this board is different from what they’re used to on other boards? Or that they’re just too dumb to adapt to using the standard conventions in use here? And that therefore they just get “confused and annoyed” when they get complaints about it, instead of figuring out how to “code switch” to the appropriate dialect? Gee, that’s a good deal harsher than anything I said about obstinate kidspeak users. I called them lazy and arrogant and self-absorbed, true, but you seem to be calling them flat-out stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/167 "2009-11-17T15:42:54Z")
Kimstu, you’re so \*cute \*when you’re angry. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/168 "2009-11-17T15:59:45Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But nobody here is going around “correcting” the behavior of posters on other, more casual message boards. Which is one of the reasons I think people here are perfectly capable of reading what the casual writers are writing. We can’t change other people. That’s pretty much a given. We can change ourselves and our attitudes. Railing against others for failing to use capitalizations means a new fight every other minute. Learning to roll with the typographic punches pretty much solves the problem forever. ---
**Author:** ![Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/65b543/32.png) [@Hero\_From\_Sector\_7G](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hero_From_Sector_7G)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/169 "2009-11-17T16:00:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I called them lazy and arrogant and self-absorbed, true, but you seem to be calling them flat-out stupid. I think the issue is nuanced and interesting. I sincerely believe it is an issue of dialect, rather than individual disposition. You are welcome to your opinion, but you don’t appear to be interested in an earnest discussion. I’m done here. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/170 "2009-11-17T18:09:00Z")
> [@HFS7G](#): > > You are welcome to your opinion, but you don’t appear to be interested in an earnest discussion. > [@jsgoddess](#): > > We can’t change other people. That’s pretty much a given. We can change ourselves and our attitudes. :rolleyes: Welcome to the Pit, sweeties. Changing ourselves and our attitudes, or earnestly discussing our opinions, in preference to railing against things that annoy us has no place here. If all you wimpy permissive slacker orthographists were bitching about people dissing slacker orthography in a different context, I’d be heart and soul on your side. Personally, I don’t even make occasional polite requests to orthographic slackers in other forums that I personally would find it easier to read their posts if they’d throw in some capital letters or punctuation marks now and then. I’m not their English teacher, and it’s not my place to question their choice of writing style (except in the cases where I have to suggest or ask for a particular clarification because their writing has actually obscured their meaning). For the most part, if I can figure out what they said then I can ignore how sloppily they said it. Nitpicking their orthography choices would be both pointless and rude. But if somebody’s going to open up a rant in a forum specifically allotted to rants about how annoying it is to have to deal with deliberately lazy, self-indulgent slacker orthography in contexts where more formal written English is the prevalent dialect, then by Og, I’m entitled to take that opportunity to express criticism of deliberately lazy, self-indulgent slacker orthography. And any whiny slacker apologists who come in to threadshit by trying to play “gotcha” with false accusations of inconsistency or hypocrisy, or by sanctimoniously scolding me for my intolerance, or by condescendingly informing me that the issue is no big deal, can go suck Robert Lowth’s dusty dick. I trust that clears things up for you. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/171 "2009-11-17T18:17:22Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I trust that clears things up for you. Oh yeah. You’re coming through loud and clear. No worries about that. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/172 "2009-11-17T18:48:19Z")
So _cute_! I just wanna pinch your widdle cheeky-weekies, oh yes I do! _Yes I do!_ ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/173 "2009-11-17T18:51:15Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Indeed, **dhkendall** was admirably gracious to you about your stick-poking “gotcha” games. This being the Pit, though, where we don’t have to suffer fools gladly for the sake of maintaining graciousness, I see no need to cut you that much slack. I think it’s because I’m still new here and discovering what exactly the certain kind of special the Pit is. Maybe it’s because I don’t have it in my being to be as snarky as you need to be to post a typical Pit post (so sue me, I’m Canadian, it’s in our genetic makeup to be polite.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/174 "2009-11-17T19:41:42Z")
> [@dhkendall](#): > > I think it’s because I’m still new here and discovering what exactly the certain kind of special the Pit is. Maybe it’s because I don’t have it in my being to be as snarky as you need to be to post a typical Pit post That’s quite all right—if I don’t have to excuse myself for being bitchy in a Pit post, you certainly don’t have to excuse yourself for being nice in one! You can be as Canadianly good-natured and gracious as you want around here, and I personally admire (without emulating ;)) you for it. ---
**Author:** ![koufax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7ea924/32.png) [@koufax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/koufax)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/175 "2009-11-17T22:28:06Z")
i want Kimstu to tie me up and breathily whisper “orthawwwwgraphy, baby, orthawwwwgraphy” over and over and over until my dangling participle is at full attention and then spank me with a copy of strunk’s “elements of style” is that bad? ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2009, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/176 "2009-11-17T23:25:43Z")
Strunk and White’s _The Elements of Style_, you naughty boy, you. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/177 "2009-11-18T16:15:09Z")
Okay, for those of you who Just Don’t Get It, here is another attempt to explain why you’re retarded. I am not saying, “You’re wrong–text that doesn’t follow standardized rules for spelling/grammar/punctuation is just as easy to read as text that does.” I am not saying, “Don’t criticize people for doing this or point out how much harder it is to read their text.” What I \*\*am \*\*saying is, “If you make these criticisms, be damn sure to proof your post, because if you don’t, you’re opening yourself up to mockery–an opening I’m surely going to take.” When you are advocating that people follow a given set of rules out of consideration to their readers, it behooves you to ensure that you follow those same rules as a courtesy to your own. ---
**Author:** ![Gustav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/919ad9/32.png) [@Gustav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gustav)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/178 "2009-11-18T16:51:07Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > When you are advocating that people follow a given set of rules out of consideration to their readers, it behooves you to ensure that you follow those same rules as a courtesy to your own. As has been pointed out half a dozen times already, there’s a huge difference between making mistakes, and completely disregarding the rules. The idea that “well this guy made a few mistakes, so I’m free to do whatever I want” is fucking ridiculous. And that is what he’s arguing. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/179 "2009-11-18T17:28:45Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > The idea that “well this guy made a few mistakes, so I’m free to do whatever I want” is fucking ridiculous. Good thing I’m not making that argument, then, isn’t it? Good thing I **specifically debunked that in the post to which you’re replying** , even. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230/180 "2009-11-18T18:27:08Z")
> [@Gustav](#): > > And that is what he’s arguing. Wait, who are you referring to here? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-id-like-to-buy-a-shift-key/517230.md?page=10)