# PAT question **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** football-nfl\ **Created:** [October 27, 2026, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197 "2026-10-27T17:33:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/1 "2026-10-27T17:33:55Z")
In the NFL, PAT kicks scrimmage from the 15. If the snap is fumbled, and the offense manages to run the ball into the endzone, I assume they get two points rather than one, but no one I asked was sure enough to confirm that to me. So 1 or 2 points. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/2 "2026-10-27T17:44:34Z")
From the NFL rulebook, in which a point-after-touchdown play is referred to as a “try”: > [@](#): > > If a Try results in a touchdown by either team, two points are awarded. For the offense, that translates to a two-point conversion attempt. For the defense, that translates to a fumble recovery, blocked kick recovery, interception return, etc. (It’s rule 11, section 3, article 2) > **[NFL Football Operations | NFL Football Operations](https://operations.nfl.com/rules-officiating/2026-nfl-rulebook)** ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/3 "2026-10-27T17:52:38Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > For the defense, that translates to a fumble recovery, blocked kick recovery, interception return, etc. The Buccaneers did that just a couple days ago. > **[Buccaneers get rare defensive 2-point conversion on blocked extra-point kick...](https://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/article/buccaneers-get-rare-defensive-2-point-conversion-on-blocked-extra-point-kick-returned-by-zyon-mccollum-182752769.html)** > > There were previously 15 defensive 2-point conversions in the NFL since a rule change in 2015. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/4 "2026-10-27T17:52:42Z")
There are weirder situations like the offense is intercepted on a two point attempt. The the player who caught it fumbles and the player who was originally the offense runs it in. Right? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/5 "2026-10-27T18:00:02Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > The the player who caught it fumbles and the player who was originally the offense runs it in. Right? I’m pretty sure that that would, indeed, be 2 points for the offense, based on the wording of the rule I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/6 "2026-10-27T18:13:38Z")
That’s why, if a team scores a touchdown to take a 1 or 2 point lead near the end of a game, they will go into a victory formation and take a knee on the extra point try. They want to make sure that a try isn’t blocked/fumbled/picked and returned by the defense for 2 points. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/7 "2026-10-27T18:52:53Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > There are weirder situations like the offense is intercepted on a two point attempt. The the player who caught it fumbles and the player who was originally the offense runs it in. Right? Even weirder would be the team on defense recovers, fumbles it into the end zone 80 yards away, the offense recovers and is tackled in that end zone for a safety - the defense is then awarded one point. ---
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/8 "2026-10-27T18:59:28Z")
Is the defensive 2-point conversion a fairly new thing in the NFL? I know it’s been a rule in college football for eons, but I thought that a change of possession on a try in the NFL means the play is immediately over. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/9 "2026-10-27T19:01:19Z")
> [@Ponch8](#): > > Is the defensive 2-point conversion a fairly new thing in the NFL? Yes; it was introduced in 2015, the same year that the league moved the line of scrimmage for kick PAT attempts from the 2 to the 15. Prior to that, a conversion attempt on which the defense gained possession of the ball was blown dead. > **[Everything you need to know about point-after-touchdown conversion rules](https://www.footballzebras.com/2015/09/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-new-point-after-touchdown-conversion-rules/)** > > The owners passed a major change to modify the rules for the touchdown-conversion try, which is arguably the most significant scoring change in football in over 100 years. The new rule will increase the distance for extra-point kicks by moving the... ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/10 "2026-10-27T19:42:35Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > That’s why, if a team scores a touchdown to take a 1 or 2 point lead near the end of a game, they will go into a victory formation and take a knee on the extra point try. Not really. Before the 2018 season, teams might do this if they scored with no time remaining, because the rules still required the PAT attempt. It famously happened in the Vikings-Saints game in January 2018, which led to the league eliminating the need for the PAT if time has expired and it doesn’t affect the game outcome. Since that change, it has happened only once when the Texans went up by 2 with 6 seconds remaining, and their kicker has been injured and was out of the game. In most cases (especially given the comebacks this season with seconds left on the clock), the team is going to kick the PAT when up by 2. And if they are up by 1, they are more likely to try for 2 to make the lead 3. In fact, that has happened several times in the last 8 years. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/11 "2026-10-27T19:44:56Z")
> [@TroutMan](#): > > And if they are up by 1, they are more likely to try for 2 to make the lead 3. And if that turns into a pick that the defense takes to the House for a 1 point victory, the coach will be crucified upside down in the media. LOL ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/12 "2026-10-27T19:47:20Z")
I could be wrong but I don’t think a single team has tried for much less succeeded on a fake conversion for 2 points since it got moved back to the 15. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/13 "2026-10-27T20:01:40Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > And if that turns into a pick that the defense takes to the House for a 1 point victory, the coach will be crucified upside down in the media. LOL Sure. And if that was a bigger risk than the other team getting a field goal in the last seconds, teams would kneel. But they don’t. Here are recent examples of them going for 2 when up by 1. I find no examples of them taking a knee. - Chiefs vs Titans 10/10/2019: [https://youtu.be/oJEXxZmJq5k?t=740](https://youtu.be/oJEXxZmJq5k?t=740) - Vikings vs Seahawks 10/11/2020: [https://youtu.be/1YIigArbYoo?t=828](https://youtu.be/1YIigArbYoo?t=828) - Browns vs Colts 10/23/2023: [https://youtu.be/-wsIcWAAn8U?t=828](https://youtu.be/-wsIcWAAn8U?t=828) - Jets vs Patriots 10/27/2024: [https://youtu.be/SdUkySR1B\_k?t=759](https://youtu.be/SdUkySR1B_k?t=759) - Bears vs Commanders 10/27/2024: [https://youtu.be/tZm9eo8Nkp0?t=617](https://youtu.be/tZm9eo8Nkp0?t=617) ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/14 "2026-10-27T20:02:51Z")
Please, let it happen! I can see all the talking heads on ESPN really going to town on that. LOL ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/15 "2026-10-27T20:06:14Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > That’s why, if a team scores a touchdown to take a 1 or 2 point lead near the end of a game, they will go into a victory formation and take a knee on the extra point try. I watch a LOT of NFL football, and I cannot remember ever seeing this happening. Can you show us an example? ETA: Ninja’d by @TroutMan, who found several examples to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/16 "2026-10-27T20:10:49Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > Can you show us an example? > For example, during an NFL playoff game in January 2018 (the “Minneapolis Miracle” game), the Minnesota Vikings scored a walk-off, game-winning touchdown against the New Orleans Saints as time expired. Because the game was already over with zero seconds left on the game clock, the Vikings simply took a knee on the mandatory extra-point try before leaving the field. There would be more, I’m sure, but the NFL eliminated the mandatory PAT following walk-off TDs. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/17 "2026-10-27T20:16:11Z")
That was already mentioned and it’s not at all an example of your original claim that it was done with time remaining in the game much mess that it was a typical occurrence. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/18 "2026-10-27T20:17:06Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > but the NFL eliminated the mandatory PAT following walk-off TDs. That example was with zero seconds on the clock as noted above, again by @TroutMan. But you stated ‘near the end of a game’, so that rule change wouldn’t apply to your assertion. I’m not saying it’s never happened, but you still need to provide some proof. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/19 "2026-10-27T20:25:16Z")
Yes, @TroutMan (I think) documented that very well` > [@Railer13](#): > > I’m not saying it’s never happened, but you still need to provide some proof. > Well, on September 10, 1988, St. John’s University defeated Iona College 26–24 after a defensive two-point return, marking the first time the play decided a college football game. I know, you’re going to incredulously say, “THAT is your definition of “frequently”?!” Well, it depends on how you look at it. Measured against the age of the earth, it’s barely the blink of an eye. Okay, I’ll stop now. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2026, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197/20 "2026-10-27T20:41:32Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > on September 10, 1988, St. John’s University defeated Iona College 26–24 after a defensive two-point return, marking the first time the play decided a college football game. IOW, when Iona was going for the extra point, the game was **tied** at 24. St. John’s blocked the kick and returned it for 2 points and won the game. Again, not an example of your statement. I’m beginning to think that it’s never happened. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-question/1034197.md?page=2)