# Pat Robertson: Sharon's stroke is God's punishment. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 5, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652 "2006-01-05T22:52:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/101 "2006-01-07T17:30:00Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > Judaism is as much a religious fanstasy as Christianity, to me. I don’t see how wanting them to believe his particular fantasy is bigoted, or any more bigoted than anybody else who thinks their religion is one true religion and hopes everybody else believes the “truth” someday. Actually, that kind of belief is pretty much unique to Christianity. The idea that salvation comes from specific belief does not exist in Judaism or really any other religion I can think of. Certainly no major religions. Other religions actually _don’t_ think it’s necessary for the rest of the world to believe as they do. Robertson and his ilk do not merely _hope_ that Jews will convert (something which I would argue is still an offensive attutude in itself), they believe that Judaism is _illegitimate_ and that all Jews will see the error of their ways and _repent_ when Jesus cmes back. They see being Jewish as a _sin_. Pat Robertson once wrote a “Left Behind” style apocalypse novel which depicted the Jews in Israel grovelling _en masse_ on their knees and begging forgiveness from Jesus at the end. I don’t see how it can be argued that the suggestion that Jews have to beg forgiveness for being Jews is anything but offensive. It also follows that Robertson’s support for Israel is disingenuous in that he does not respect or care about or want to preserve Judaism itself. > [@](#): > > I think it’d be the best if everybody in the world becomes athiest like me, does that make me bigoted? More or less than Pat? Am I insulting anybody, too? Maybe not as much as Pat, but I would say that your wish is at least misguided and possibley insulting, yes. I don’t know that it’s exactly analogous to fundy support for Israel, though. If there were some circumstance where you pretended to support some theist cause only because you believed it was a step towards turning them atheist (I can’t really think of a plausible hypothetical, though) then I think you would have a comparison which was comparable. Even so, you wouldn’t have a belief that theists deserve eternal torture if they don’t decide to become atheists. Robertson believes pecisely that should happen to Jews who don’t become Christians (so does GWB, for that matter). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/102 "2006-01-07T17:34:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > then I think you would have a comparison which was comparable. You’d also have a redundancy whiich repeated itself :smack: I meant to say an _analogy_ which was comporable. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/103 "2006-01-07T19:07:07Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If there were some circumstance where you pretended to support some theist cause only because you believed it was a step towards turning them atheist (I can’t really think of a plausible hypothetical, though) then I think you would have a comparison which was comparable. That’s exactly the issue for me. His “support” for Israel is entirely conditional, **Revtim**. You can see that in his comments about Rabin’s assassination and Sharon’s stroke. ---
**Author:** ![Shirley\_Ujest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shirley\_Ujest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shirley_Ujest)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/104 "2006-01-07T20:21:39Z")
> [@](#): > > fag-infested West Virginia"? I had no idea WV was a hotbed of homosexuality. Miners go way down, if you know what I mean. /one ticket. ---
**Author:** ![Sequent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Sequent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sequent)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/105 "2006-01-07T21:21:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Actually, that kind of belief is pretty much unique to Christianity. The idea that salvation comes from specific belief does not exist in Judaism or really any other religion I can think of. Q: What about Islam? Is the whole “infidels must die” thing strictly a product of fundies or does the _Koran_ explicity condemn non-believers? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/106 "2006-01-07T21:23:23Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Q: What about Islam? Is the whole “infidels must die” thing strictly a product of fundies or does the _Koran_ explicity condemn non-believers? I can’t answer that, but I think the key to that comment was “salvation through belief.” It’s not about tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/107 "2006-01-07T21:45:42Z")
> [@Sequent](#): > > Q: What about Islam? Is the whole “infidels must die” thing strictly a product of fundies or does the _Koran_ explicity condemn non-believers? There is no “infidels must die” thing in mainstream Islam. Islamic doctrine is that people will be judged by their deeds, not their belief. Islam views Judaism and Christianity as worshipping the same God as Islam, so they are not infidels. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/108 "2006-01-08T03:20:17Z")
> [@Pat Robertson's stooge](#): > > She also expressed Dr. Robertson’s outrage at People for the American Way, who have a clear left-wing political agenda and who, on an ongoing basis, lift his comments out of context and widely circulate them in an attempt to discredit him. [http://www.patrobertson.com/PressReleases/ArielSharonPR.asp](http://www.patrobertson.com/PressReleases/ArielSharonPR.asp) > [@GWB's stooge](#): > > A White House spokesman described the broadcaster’s remarks as “wholly inappropriate and offensive”. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4589270.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4589270.stm) As long as Mr. Robertson believes that GWB and the America Way share the same clear left wing political agenda, then all’s right with the world :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/109 "2006-01-08T12:56:55Z")
I do not know what caused Sharon’s stroke, I hope he recovers fully.I think the sad thing is that Sharon’s Party was responsible for the death of Rabin and now after years and many deaths, he has come to finish what Rabin started. I had 2 TIAs and one small stroke, I am not over weight,I excercise, and eat well, I have a very slow heart rate and undergoing a test in the hospital my heart stopped for a second,not getting oxygen to the brain. after I got home My head went numb,and my nose felt like it had novacain, the MRI showed a slight stroke with very little damage. Should Pat Robertson have a stroke or some bad illiness( I do not wish it on him) I wonder if he will consider it a punishment from God for being wrong. What about the hundreds of stroke victims who have severe strokes…even ministers… does Pat consider that? Sad that people even consider anything he says. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/110 "2006-01-08T13:38:12Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > He has a valid point. It’s right there in the Bible: "Cursed are Peacemakers, for they shall suffer apoplexy in their twilight years. " He had a pacemaker? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/111 "2006-01-08T22:00:37Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is no “infidels must die” thing in mainstream Islam. Islamic doctrine is that people will be judged by their deeds, not their belief. Islam views Judaism and Christianity as worshipping the same God as Islam, so they are not infidels. . . . Can’t recall the thread, but we discussed this in a GD thread and somebody posted several Koranic verses that seem to say pretty clearly all non-Muslims will be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/112 "2006-01-09T00:20:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . Can’t recall the thread, but we discussed this in a GD thread and somebody posted several Koranic verses that seem to say pretty clearly all non-Muslims will be damned. There are no such verses in the Koran. The Koran doesn’t contain the word “non-muslims.” When the Koran speaks of "infidels, it is generally referring to idolters of the time and it does not include Jews and Christians. Jews and Christians _are not called “infidels” in the Koran_. Islamic belief is that only people who have received a full and complete understanding of Islam and still reject it will be punished. Anyone who has not received a “messenger” from Allah who can explain Islam in a complete and thorough way will be judged fairly by God after the resurrection. From the [_Surah al-Baqarah_, verse 62](http://www.qurantoday.com/BaqSec8.htm#Verse2:62): > [@](#): > > Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. There is no doctrine in Islam that you have to be Muslim to go to Heaven. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/113 "2006-01-09T06:17:57Z")
The Christians and the Jews of the People of the Book in our times are indeed those referred to in the texts of Shari`ah, in both the Qur’an and Sunnah, as “Ahlul-Kitab. **They are to be reckoned as unbelievers just as they were in the lifetime of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). They are the people of the corrupted Torah and Injeel, as evidenced by the fact that Allah called them “People of the Book” despite their being unbelievers and their books being corrupted.** Following are some Qur’anic verses that prove this fact: “O people of the Book! why do you reject the Signs of Allah, of which you are (yourselves) witnesses?” (Al `Imran: 70) “O people of the Book! There has come to you Our Messenger, revealing to you much that you used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There has come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book.” (Al Ma’idah: 15) [http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask\_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545240](http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545240) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/114 "2006-01-09T06:28:41Z")
You need to reread the part about how people are only considered “infidels” if they have been fully informed about Islam and still reject it. Mainstream Islam does not teach that Christians and Jews can’t go to heaven. You’re wrong. I know you have some kind of hard-on for Muslims but you’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/115 "2006-01-09T08:32:52Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > You need to reread the part about how people are only considered “infidels” if they have been fully informed about Islam and still reject it. Mainstream Islam does not teach that Christians and Jews can’t go to heaven. You’re wrong. I know you have some kind of hard-on for Muslims but you’re wrong. No, _You_ need to read up on what Islam Online says. It’s a mainstream Islam site. It answers questions to muslims and non-muslims. Questions like: > [@](#): > > Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. I frequently hear the term “Ahlul-Kitab”. Does this term apply to the Jews and Christians of today with their gross violations of all the divine rules and teachings imbedded in the revealed books? Jazakum Allah khayran And _You_ need to read up on what Islam really means by ‘people of the book’ - or ‘Ahlul-Kitab’. I didn’t get that quote from some right-wing site, you know. Btw: I suggest that from now on, we shall call every apologist or sympathiser to a religion that is homo-phobic, xenophobic, anti-semite and discriminative towards women - in short: a conservative and reactionary belief: a Right-wing nutter. Okay, Ann Coulter? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/116 "2006-01-09T10:44:48Z")
> [@gum](#): > > No, _You_ need to read up on what Islam Online says. [Okay](http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544450). > [@](#): > > Muslims are required to believe in all the Books revealed by Allah and in all the Prophets sent by Him, otherwise they are not considered true believers. Allah says in the Qur’an: (Say: We (Muslims) believe in Allah and in what He has revealed to us, and in what He revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes (of Israel), and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and in what was given to (all) the prophets by their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.) (Al-Baqarah 2:136) Consequently, if the People of the Book read the Qur’an, they will find in it praise for their Books, Messengers, and Prophets. > > In having dialogue with the People of the Book, Muslims should avoid such approaches that may cause bitterness or arouse hostility; Allah says, (And do not dispute with the People of the Book except by (the way) which is best, unless it be with such of them as transgress, and say, ‘We believe in what has been sent down to us and sent down to you, and our God and your God is one, and to Him do we submit.’) (Al-`Ankabut 29:46) > > We have already seen how Islam permits eating with the People of the Book, sharing the meat they slaughter, and marrying their women, marriage being a relationship of mutual love and mercy. Almighty Allah says: (…The food of those who were given the Scripture (before you) is permitted to you and your food is permitted to them. And (lawful to you in marriage are) chaste women from among the Believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you…) (Al-Ma’idah 5:5 ) I’m not sure what your point is with the bit you’ve quoted. So one lay person asked if the term “People of the Book” still applied to modern Christians and Jews. The answer is yes, right? So what? According to Islam, Jews and Christians are just fine and can obtain their eternal reward on their own merits. ---
**Author:** ![marymargaret](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@marymargaret](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marymargaret)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/117 "2006-01-09T12:52:34Z")
I wonder why God punished Cheney with a bad heart? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/118 "2006-01-09T12:55:38Z")
Dick the Tin Man Cheney was in and out of the hospital this weekend for shortness of breath. Did God smite him, too? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/119 "2006-01-09T15:01:36Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Dick the Tin Man Cheney was in and out of the hospital this weekend for shortness of breath. Did God smite him, too? Eh, just a love tap. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652/120 "2006-01-09T18:48:28Z")
> [@marymargaret](#): > > I wonder why God punished Cheney with a bad heart? :rolleyes: You want a list? 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-robertson-sharons-stroke-is-gods-punishment/338652.md?page=7)