# "Pat Tillman is not a hero: he got what was coming to him." **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 29, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745 "2004-04-29T21:00:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/61 "2004-04-30T13:45:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s got to be public, but I think it’s highly unlikely the university will lose funding over something that is specifically disclaimed in the paper to be the opinion of an individual, not of the university or any of its employees. I disagree. In this modern overly politically correct world we live in today, I would not at all be surprised to hear about someone pulling their donations due to this kid’s ignorant opinion piece. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/62 "2004-04-30T13:52:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Gonzales lives in a cozy little leftist land where reality is kept at bay. Is this a comment on UMass in particular, or just an ingenious and wholly original comment on academia in general? > [@](#): > > I’m sure that he thought his article would impress his friends and perhaps get a couple of girls to put down those anti-war signs long enough to drop thier pants. Yeah, I’m sure he had no idea that writing negative things about a recently deceased guy who has been universally praised in the media would generate controversy and criticism. > [@](#): > > My feeling Was obviously pulled warm (and probably steaming) from your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/63 "2004-04-30T13:53:31Z")
**Marley23** , the head of a university is an administrator, but what is he running? They don’t call them institutions of higher learning for nothing. This may sound like semantics, but it’s not, not really. University presidents in recent years have concentrated on fund raising, capital improvements, medical centers, graduate programs, and sports teams. Where they once were a driving force in the direction and focus of the educational programs of the university, today they leave that job to the colleges, the departments, and the faculty. I don’t know much about Jack Wilson, but he may well be a more hands on administrator than most. And if that extends to dressing down a student who made a public spectacle of himself, that falls properly within his role as someone charged with educating Rene Gonzalez and sending him into the world a better man. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/64 "2004-04-30T13:53:38Z")
Oh, but this one is rich… > [@](#): > > In his own neighborhood in Puerto Rico, according to Gonzalez, Tillman would not have been considered a hero, but a “pendejo,” or idiot. _mamame la pinga_, René (trans: Suck my dick, René). I can only assume that growing up in “his neighborhood” our dear asshat was his class bully’s bitch, or saw the girl he pined for pull a train with the varsity team; and so has grown up with a jones for seeing anyone strong, athletic or physically assertive be smacked down (thus the gratuitious remark about the “beefy face”, because, of course, big muscular guys are just brutes :rolleyes: ) They remind him who was the real _pendejo_. But you know what, I’m glad this guy (can I have his “nationality” line changed to Asshat on that page?) went ahead and fired off the rash, written-in-anger version of the column, w/o stopping to think and editing it down into the one about hero-worship described in his apology. Because it exposed his own ignorance, arrogance, insecurites and prejudices in all their foul glory. Talk about “thinking it was a knee-jerk reaction”. ---
**Author:** ![RTA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b4bc9f/32.png) [@RTA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTA)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/65 "2004-04-30T13:55:14Z")
Wow, **Evil One** , you sound just like Gonzalez! ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/66 "2004-04-30T14:02:55Z")
As a university student for a few more weeks, I don’t feel that the head of the school has played any part in making me a better person. The man is not an educator by any stretch, as you say, he’s mostly a fundraiser. I can’t speculate about Jack Wilson personally, but regardless of his personality, I think he’s piling on to a student who is definitely getting some richly deserved criticism. I think he’s overstepping his bounds as a university leader and not acting in the best interest of a school, which would involve encouraging debate. [Here’s his biography](http://www.jackmwilson.com). He’s been a teacher, but is a longtime administrator, and is the interim President of the school. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/67 "2004-04-30T14:07:31Z")
> [@RTA](#): > > Wow, **Evil One** , you sound just like Gonzalez! Nice try. Tillman was doing something noble and selfless. His effort deserves praise. In writing what he did and stepping into the public arena, Gonzales dropped to his knees, clasped his baby smooth hands together and raised them to his chin… begging to be mocked. ---
**Author:** ![Trunk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/87869e/32.png) [@Trunk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trunk)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/68 "2004-04-30T14:10:09Z")
> [@Muad'Dib](#): > > _blink_ _blink_ > > Rambo gets shot in the third movie? Yes, and as you might expect, it was AWESOME!! It entered just to the side of his stomach and came out the back near his kidneys. He poured gunpowder into the wound :eek: and then lit it on **fire** :eek: :eek: to cauterize it. IIRC, they showed him from the side when he did this and flames shot out forward and backward. It was totally AWESOME. You wanna talk about a hero – you got one in John Rambo (who I guess in retrospect was helping people very much like Al Qaeda in that movie). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/69 "2004-04-30T14:10:42Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Is this a comment on UMass in particular, or just an ingenious and wholly original comment on academia in general? As a University student, you are apparently defensive about the leftist environment at most of them. My comment was based on UMass, yes. Have I been there? No. Am I willing to go out on a limb and theorize that there is a liberal tilt there? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/70 "2004-04-30T14:11:12Z")
He does deserve to be mocked, **Evil One**. Your post was still stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/71 "2004-04-30T14:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > As a University student, you are apparently defensive about the leftist environment at most of them. I’ve learned not to make moronic overgeneralizations about tremendous groups of people. But I didn’t need a university class for that, I thought it was common sense. If you’d like to play the ego game (“I’ve said something shockingly dumb and you’ve called me on it, so I must be right!”), go ahead. Yes, universities tend to be left-leaning. What this guy wrote isn’t left-leaning, it’s very extreme, and I still think your assumptions about him (nevermind his motives) are absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/72 "2004-04-30T14:17:37Z")
Stupid in what way, Marley? Did you think the imagery was over the top? Or should I have put more effort into it? And why are you so defensive? What nerve have I struck? All I am doing is giving a sheltered leftist twit the flaming he is begging for and some more of the attention he was obviously wanting. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/73 "2004-04-30T14:23:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What this guy wrote isn’t left-leaning, it’s very extreme, and I still think your assumptions about him (nevermind his motives) are absurd. Not left-leaning? Do they offer political science at that thar school you go to? Which political philosophy is anti-military at it’s extreme? As for my assumptions about him, I am going on my knowledge of the man and filtering it through my personal experience and opinions. Could I be wrong on some of them? Of course. But I’ll take my chances. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/74 "2004-04-30T14:28:27Z")
**Marley23** , I agree a university president should encourage debate. He should, however, also encourage his students be decent, respectful, well-mannered human beings. It is for these failings young Gonzalez deserved reproof. If the university president wasn’t going to do it, who would? The newspaper editors had already folded twice, both by printing the craptacular piece, then falsely saying they were forced to print it because of their First Amendment values. Jack Wilson couldn’t count on a faculty member to reprimand Gonzalez. They probably would have seen it as not their place (after all, Gonzalez is paying their salary). Some of them might have sympathized with the views of an idealistic young leftist, and wouldn’t want to call such a kid on the carpet for bad behavior. Jack Wilson did what he had to do. Thank God there was an adult, somewhere on campus, willing to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/75 "2004-04-30T14:29:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Stupid in what way, Marley? Just about all of them, if you want to get down to it. > [@](#): > > And why are you so defensive? What nerve have I struck? I suppose it’s because you’ve made a humongous and stupid overgeneralization that despite being obviously false, insults me, you ass. But beyond that, there’s no nerve to strike. Like I said, if you’re one of those Rush-style morons who thinks they must be right if someone tells them they’re assholes, proceed because the stupidity of that logic is impenetrable. > [@](#): > > Not left-leaning? Do they offer political science at that thar school you go to? You’re hitting a real exteme here in that you turned off your brain halfway through the fucking sentence. Come on, pal, you quoted the whole thing, so I presume your eyes must’ve passed over it. His opinion definitely falls to the left. What I said is that universities and students tend to be left-leaning, the emphasis being on LEANING as opposed to avowedly liberal. This numbskull went even further than that and is clearly representing an extreme viewpoint that is not characteristic of the vast majority of people who would identify themselves as belonging to the left. ---
**Author:** ![krisolov](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krisolov/32/3724_2.png) [@krisolov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krisolov)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/76 "2004-04-30T14:30:26Z")
you know this surprises me not one bit. I graduated from UMass in the mid 80s and it has always been a haven for idealistic quasi liberal morons. This idiot is a prime example of the empty headed protest du jour mentality that was always going on there. I was in the ROTC program there and got spit on by one of these types of folks when I was walking across campus one day, accompanied by this same girl hissing a venomous “rape, murder, kill” at me. Good for the university president for at least having a pair. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/77 "2004-04-30T15:02:46Z")
> [@](#): > > If the university president wasn’t going to do it, who would? The newspaper editors had already folded twice, both by printing the craptacular piece, then falsely saying they were forced to print it because of their First Amendment values. Nobody said they were forced to do anything. They said that part of their job is to encourage debate, and they can’t live up to that without printing anything controversial. They printed a column praising Tillman on the very same page. > [@](#): > > Jack Wilson couldn’t count on a faculty member to reprimand Gonzalez. They probably would have seen it as not their place (after all, Gonzalez is paying their salary). It’s not their place to make those comments to major media outlets, no. > [@](#): > > Some of them might have sympathized with the views of an idealistic young leftist, and wouldn’t want to call such a kid on the carpet for bad behavior. Yes, perhaps because some of them actually deal with him on a day-to-day basis and know him personally, which Dr. Wilson probably doesn’t. > [@](#): > > Jack Wilson did what he had to do. He had to use the press to humiliate a student? I had no idea that was in his job description. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/78 "2004-04-30T15:04:21Z")
Yes, **krislov** , it takes real bravery for an authority figure to go along with a huge tide of criticism against someone of a vastly inferior status. I can only hope we’ll see more of that in the future. ---
**Author:** ![LibrarySpy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@LibrarySpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LibrarySpy)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/79 "2004-04-30T15:06:55Z")
I’m pissed at the Pat Tillman thing, too. People I know are in Afghanistan. People are dying over there. And no one would give a shit if some football has-been celebrity hadn’t been killed. This is no more than a celebrity orgy, and it’s disgusting. Pat Tillman’s death, while tragic, is no more tragic or symbolic than the rest of the efforts of our soldiers over there, and I’m sickened by the knowledge that as soon as Pat’s 15 minutes are up, soldiers will keep dying, and neither Americans nor the news media will care, because those sacrifices aren’t cool enough to air. Anyone who is saying, “These kids today” needs to realize that [40% of the casualties in Iraq are college-age](http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?ID=28386), and go fuck themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2004, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745/80 "2004-04-30T15:07:40Z")
Marley, my intention in participating in this thread was to pile on Gonzales. I think he deserves it. Krisolov appears to validate my assumption of UMass, twenty years ago. I would not be shocked to find the same atmosphere pervading today. The further to the left or right someone is, the more insufferable they are to me. I don’t need conspiracy theories on corporate america any more than I need a lecture on white power. My intention was not to insult you. It was to insult Gonzales and those who think like him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pat-tillman-is-not-a-hero-he-got-what-was-coming-to-him/242745.md?page=5)