# Paternal Responsibility **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708 "2012-03-24T20:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/241 "2012-03-27T22:21:57Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > My suggestion was to take the children away, and put the children up for adoption. You keep saying this – you would force a woman to give her child up for adoption, then? You’re not for forced abortion, but you seem to have no problem with forced adoption. How is that any better? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/242 "2012-03-27T22:24:58Z")
> [@Borzo](#): > > For someone who claims to know a lot about biology, you seem a bit confused. The man didn’t make the baby, the woman did. Wow, you’re accusing _someone else_ of being confused about biology? Please cite a source other than the bible that says parthenogenesis can occur in human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/243 "2012-03-27T22:25:23Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Except if the father opts for surgery that he cannot enforce on a woman then he still bears the costs. He does it once, and it applies to every woman he ever sleeps with. It’s a pretty good deal. What do you want? And endless supply if supplicant women you can fuck and leave with no thoughts of consequences. That’s gross. But it’s possible. A simple vasectomy, and toy can fuck what you like whenever you like, all day long. No babies, promise! ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/244 "2012-03-27T22:27:38Z")
> [@miss\_elizabeth](#): > > Your post is incoherent. You are obviously upset about your dad, or something else that only tangentially relates to this thread. I urge you to work out whatever your issues are with a therapist and return when you can post something sensible. I am not mad at my father. I don’t even know the guy. I am mad at people’s nonsense in this thread. > [@](#): > > And, nothing abut this is simple. If I have to, I will go through every page and quote every person who said it was. But I expect you to have followed along. > [@](#): > > Avoiding unwanted children is certainly _possible_, a fact which ought to hearten the men who are so utterly paranoid about being taken for a ride by some unscrupulous woman. However, since they didn’t reason themselves into this nonsense, it seems it’s impossible to reason them out of it. Oh well. Oh well? Oh well?! Oh well doesn’t pay the rent. > [@](#): > > However, I draw the line at the law creating a new “right” for men to fuck irresponsibly and suffer no consequence for that. I do not feel such a right is in the best interests of the children involved, society, or frankly the men who would take advantage of it. I think it’s a sick, sociopathic idea. What is sociopathic is supposing that assigning responsibility to the men means anything to the child or woman. I know how far that caring goes, having grown up under such a simple system. I know how far it still goes, as I know a deadbeat dad. You know what he did? Stopped working. I’m sure his child feels well-sheltered and well-fed by the knowledge that we’ve judged him to be irresponsible. > [@](#): > > Women have been taking responsibility for their fertility since the dawn of time, and even now spend more money and effort on it. This is mainly caused by biology, and so it is probably how it must be. But asking men to be careful who and how they fuck is not the end of the world. It’s basic common sense. And responsible men are already caring for their kids. Now what? > [@](#): > > As has been pointed out in this thread, _repeatedly_, it is relatively simple for men to control their fertility; simpler even than it is for women, and with less negative side effects. Take advantage of it, and shut up. Shut up doesn’t pay the rent. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/245 "2012-03-27T22:31:33Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > What part of “vasectomy” do you not understand? What part of freedom to choose when and with whom you have a child with do you not understand? It comes down to this. We shouldn’t require a woman to gestate every ejaculation. We shouldn’t require a man to pay 18 years for every ejaculation. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/246 "2012-03-27T22:34:03Z")
In this future where men can abdicate their responsibility towards their child, can women also abdicate said responsibility? Let’s say men have three weeks from conception to agree to take responsibility for their child. Can I get knocked up and tell a guy “Look, either I abort your child, or you bear full responsibility for all of the child’s needs and I’ll wander around and contribute only if it happens to suit me at the moment”? Because that seems like a great deal for me. I’m sure I could get some pro-life guy drunk and sucker him into it. I’d love to have kids- heck- even a passel of kids, without having to give up my free and easy lifestyle. If some other sucker raises them and I don’t even have to throw down a benjamin or two every month, all the better. If I can do that to enough kids, eventually one of them will be kind enough to forgive me and come visit me in my old age. I’m sure at least one or two of my new baby daddies will let me come around just enough to keep the kids in my life without actually having to do any of the work. My partner right now very much wants to be a father. I know he’d never give his child up and he’d never choose an abortion if there was another choice. If I can just get knocked up (can I lie about my intentions?! After all, it’s all buyer beware under this system) I can get him to raise my kids and pay for everything, and i’ll have zero obligation or responsibility. Sounds great to me-- it’s his choice, right? ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/247 "2012-03-27T22:37:44Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Except if the father opts for surgery that he cannot enforce on a woman then he still bears the costs. Yeah, this is just hilarious. “If a man opts for birth control that he doesn’t actually control, and depends on someone else to do all the hard work, he may end up a father” Gee, YA THINK?! :rolleyes: > [@erislover](#): > > I am not mad at my father. I don’t even know the guy. I am mad at people’s nonsense in this thread. > If I have to, I will go through every page and quote every person who said it was. But I expect you to have followed along. > Oh well? Oh well?! Oh well doesn’t pay the rent. > What is sociopathic is supposing that assigning responsibility to the men means anything to the child or woman. I know how far that caring goes, having grown up under such a simple system. I know how far it still goes, as I know a deadbeat dad. You know what he did? Stopped working. I’m sure his child feels well-sheltered and well-fed by the knowledge that we’ve judged him to be irresponsible. > And responsible men are already caring for their kids. Now what? > Shut up doesn’t pay the rent. Again, I have to say I find your post pretty much incoherent. I have no idea if I am responding to what you are saying properly, because I am unsure of what you are even saying. But, to sum up, _again_, men have birth control options. If they are concerned about having kids, they should take advantage of these options, of which there are many, until their fears are allayed. It is possible, and not even too difficult, to prevent unwanted kids. Man and women should do so. If they do not, there are consequences. I, and the bulk of society, have no interest in changing the laws to absolve men of this. I am willing to change some laws to fix things that are unfair. I think most of society agrees (although, it is something we would have to work at and see). This nonsense about voluntary child support is a distraction from these issues. Also, I fail to see how making child support voluntary would have in any way improved your childhood situation with your deadbeat dad. I don’t know what else to tell you. You seem very angry, and I don’t understand why, but I hope you find peace. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/248 "2012-03-27T22:39:28Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > What part of freedom to choose when and with whom you have a child with do you not understand? It comes down to this. We shouldn’t require a woman to gestate every ejaculation. We shouldn’t require a man to pay 18 years for every ejaculation. You think a woman gestates \*every \*time she has sex with an ejaculating partner? Really? You think men pay child support for \*every \*ejaculation? Honestly? They don’t, neither of them. So you can stop worrying. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/249 "2012-03-27T22:42:03Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > In this future where men can abdicate their responsibility towards their child, can women also abdicate said responsibility? Let’s say men have three weeks from conception to agree to take responsibility for their child. Can I get knocked up and tell a guy “Look, either I abort your child, or you bear full responsibility for all of the child’s needs and I’ll wander around and contribute only if it happens to suit me at the moment”? > > Because that seems like a great deal for me. I’m sure I could get some pro-life guy drunk and sucker him into it. I’d love to have kids- heck- even a passel of kids, without having to give up my free and easy lifestyle. If some other sucker raises them and I don’t even have to throw down a benjamin or two every month, all the better. If I can do that to enough kids, eventually one of them will be kind enough to forgive me and come visit me in my old age. I’m sure at least one or two of my new baby daddies will let me come around just enough to keep the kids in my life without actually having to do any of the work. > > My partner right now very much wants to be a father. I know he’d never give his child up and he’d never choose an abortion if there was another choice. If I can just get knocked up (can I lie about my intentions?! After all, it’s all buyer beware under this system) I can get him to raise my kids and pay for everything, and i’ll have zero obligation or responsibility. Sounds great to me-- it’s his choice, right? You would abdicate your responsibility by having the abortion. If you choose not, you would be stuck. Incidently, the scenario you have described above is basically how my first sister’s marriage works. You could have that system now if you find a gullible enough guy with money. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/250 "2012-03-27T22:42:49Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > What part of freedom to choose when and with whom you have a child with do you not understand? It comes down to this. We shouldn’t require a woman to gestate every ejaculation. We shouldn’t require a man to pay 18 years for every ejaculation. My god. People like you actually scare me. You’d rather abandon a child than have a snip? Man, that’s monstrous. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/251 "2012-03-27T22:47:37Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > My god. People like you actually scare me. > > You’d rather abandon a child than have a snip? Man, that’s monstrous. Well, I’m a woman so the snip is considerable more invasive surgery. What I consider monstrous is allowing one person the power to destroy the rest of the family. People like you really scare me. You’re putting some unwanted kid above all the rest of the family. Family requires a certain amount of unity. Unwanted kids, unapproved connections, etcs., destroy that unity. And you actually believe a man should have no choice in the woman who is mother of his children? ---
**Author:** ![Randvek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a6a055/32.png) [@Randvek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randvek)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/252 "2012-03-27T22:52:06Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > People like you really scare me. You’re putting some unwanted kid above all the rest of the family. Family requires a certain amount of unity. Unwanted kids, unapproved connections, etcs., destroy that unity. And you actually believe a man should have no choice in the woman who is mother of his children? Whoa whoa whoa. Since when does “family” only include people you want to be in it? I don’t think you have the slightest idea of what a family really is… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/253 "2012-03-27T22:53:35Z")
He chooses when he fucks an ‘unapproved’ woman without adequate protection to prevent the ‘unwanted’ child. He is not solely responsible and neither is she. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/254 "2012-03-27T23:03:04Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You would abdicate your responsibility by having the abortion. If you choose not, you would be stuck. Incidently, the scenario you have described above is basically how my first sister’s marriage works. You could have that system now if you find a gullible enough guy with money. Under the current system, I’d be required to pay child support if I do not have a custodial role with my child. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/255 "2012-03-27T23:18:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Well, I’m a woman so the snip is considerable more invasive surgery. What I consider monstrous is allowing one person the power to destroy the rest of the family. People like you really scare me. You’re putting some unwanted kid above all the rest of the family. Family requires a certain amount of unity. Unwanted kids, unapproved connections, etcs., destroy that unity. And you actually believe a man should have no choice in the woman who is mother of his children? Yes. The newborn baby is above everyone else. Everyone else had a choice, and can take care of them self. A baby? Had no choice, and is utterly defenceless. Anyone who wouldn’t put that baby first is a monster. Oh, and that baby? That’s in your special “family” too. You don’t get to exclude it. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/256 "2012-03-27T23:23:00Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Yes. The newborn baby is above everyone else. Everyone else had a choice, and can take care of them self. A baby? Had no choice, and is utterly defenceless. > > Anyone who wouldn’t put that baby first is a monster. > > Oh, and that baby? That’s in your special “family” too. You don’t get to exclude it. Putting babies before adults is what destroys families. Babies are at best potential family members, but ultimately an unreliable unknown. They have contributed NOTHING to the family and as result deserve nothing. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/257 "2012-03-27T23:26:30Z")
**ZPG Zealot** (ZPG stands for “zero population growth”) is well known for her “extreme” views on this subject. Be aware of that history before you decide to engage her in debate. ---
**Author:** ![Borzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/43a26b/32.png) [@Borzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Borzo)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/258 "2012-03-27T23:31:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This is a fantastic idea. Rather than making the biological father the legal father, we instead hold a lottery, and all sexually active males are entered. To make it fair, we should weight this by level of risky behavior–so the guy who has one session of unprotected sex gets entered once, the guy who has 100 gets entered 100 times. Then we put all these numbers in a big jar, and pull out the winning/losing lottery ticket. > > This makes perfect sense, but we can simplify the situation. Rather than trying to keep track of risky sex by proxy, which sounds like a lot of work, we could, instead of using numbered ping-pong balls, use spermatazoons instead. Each spermatazoon can, after all, be traced back to a particular male. And, rather than pulling sperm out of a big jar, we use vaginas instead of jars. So, if you spooge into a random vagina, your odds of being named the parent are exactly equal to your odds of actually being the parent. It makes your proposal much simpler. > > It would be like, we’re trying to cut back on drunk driving, and it’s unfair that we only arrest the drunk drivers that cause accidents, or get pulled over randomly. Wouldn’t it be more fair to have a lottery? Or, we could just use the actual accidents as a proxy for the lottery, and arrest those who actually turn out to have caused accidents. I’ll willing to admit that this made me laugh pretty hard. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/259 "2012-03-27T23:33:48Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > What part of “vasectomy” do you not understand? The part about where it’s related to choice. Women have the the choice to terminate a pregnancy, keep the child, or to give up the child to adoption. Men have none of these choices after fertilization has occurred. To suggest a man gets sterilized is no different than suggesting a woman gets sterilized. It makes no sense to the argument of responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708/260 "2012-03-27T23:43:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The part about where it’s related to choice. Women have the the choice to terminate a pregnancy, keep the child, or to give up the child to adoption. Men have none of these choices after fertilization has occurred. To suggest a man gets sterilized is no different than suggesting a woman gets sterilized. It makes no sense to the argument of responsibility. Men DO have the option to keep a kid or put it up for adoption. Seriously, we’ve been over and over this. They cannot unilaterally decide to terminate a pregnancy, but that is because they do not _carry_ the pregnancy. They bear _none_ of the physical risks of child birth. But once a child is born, men have the same rights as women\*. They also have the same responsibility to prevent conception from occurring, and there are many ways to achieve that. Men who do not want to be fathers should avail themselves of the many, many ways pregnancy can be prevented, and should make an effort to only sleep with women who are as committed to avoiding parenthood as they are. \*and where they do not, I fully support changing that. Custody is going to men more and more frequently, and I think that is a good thing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/paternal-responsibility/616708.md?page=14)