# Patrick Fitzgerald Smear Countdown **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2005, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585 "2005-07-14T22:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/21 "2005-07-15T17:27:32Z")
(looking at calendar) Pres Bush is a lame duck. Rove is best at the behind the scenes during a campaign. Firing him would leave him available for the other opportunities that are sure to come his way before the 2008 campaign gets started. It’s a win-win: Bush is seen putting his foot down and Rove gets to go to work for Jeb right away. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/22 "2005-07-15T17:50:27Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I don’t play by those rules. But what evidence do you have that a left-wing smear is in the offing? Joe Wilson, Paul O’Neill, Scott Ritter … all were treated to a right-wing smear campaigns when they criticized the Bush administration. It’s a tactic that Karl Rove has used throughout his career. It’s totally reasonable to expect that if Patrick Fitzgerald’s grand jury comes back with results that embarrass the White House Fitzgerald will become a target as well. But your response is “Well, he will get smeared, but by the left.” 😕 Up is down. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/23 "2005-07-15T17:53:29Z")
Because I don’t think the results of the grand jury investigation will be satisfactory to the American Left. Therefore, they’ll have motive to do the smearing. And heaven knows, they haven’t been shy about using this tactic in the past. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/24 "2005-07-15T17:54:29Z")
If there was any “there” there, Rove would be gone already. This is all a pointless exercise. Bush opponents will continue to look for fault whereever they can find it, regardless of the circumstances. Rove is probably already working on the 2006 midterm elections…soon to be stolen by a Republican near you. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/25 "2005-07-15T17:54:50Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > And heaven knows, they haven’t been shy about using this tactic in the past. Pot. Kettle. Etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/26 "2005-07-15T17:58:04Z")
Oh, I don’t claim innocence for right wingers here. Not by a long shot. It was just an observation. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/27 "2005-07-15T21:51:00Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Again, Karl Rove might be innocent, or tainted to some degree. But it doesn’t look to me like he committed any crime. > > That’s just how I see it, and this honestly held opinion isn’t “spin”. If it turns out that Rove didn’t commit a prosecutable crime, maybe the laws need to be fine-tuned to close some of the loopholes for the next time. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/28 "2005-07-15T22:39:13Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > If there was any “there” there, Rove would be gone already. This is all a pointless exercise. Bush opponents will continue to look for fault whereever they can find it, regardless of the circumstances. Rove is probably already working on the 2006 midterm elections…soon to be stolen by a Republican near you. Even if not Rove, this administration has put the nation’s security in jeopardy only for partisan reasons: they revealed the identity of covert agents (the Khan case too) and destroyed years of intelligence work and they lie about it. If there was no “there” then here we have an administration of cowards, that don’t care if their actions send reporters to jail only because they need to protect their political careers. This “pointless” case is also the biggest example to show that mainstream media is not liberal, if only on this case, it is clear that it is in bed with the administration. The only hope here is to see the media finally getting ashamed of that whorish relationship. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/29 "2005-07-15T23:06:53Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Oh, I don’t claim innocence for right wingers here. Not by a long shot. > > It was just an observation. I gotta say, **Mr. Moto** , it looks to me as if Karl Rove is looking very sleazy in this situation, but you’re giving him a whole lot of benefit of the doubt. Leftists in this situation aren’t (at least so far) coming out nearly so sleazy, but you’re giving them no benefit of the doubt whatsoever. Whereas you’re willing to make every allowance for the fact that Rove might not have acted unethically, you’re making no allowance for the fact that leftists might not act unethically. That looks double-standardy to me. I’m not willing to lock the jailkey behind Rove yet; I want to see what evidence comes out. But some things seem clear to me so far: 1. Rove acted like a total sleazebag here. In the best-case scenario, he got tipped off about Plame from some forgettable reporter ( :rolleyes: ), and then tipped Novak off in order to smear Wilson. That’s incredibly sleazy politics, almost as bad as trying to discredit George W. Bush by bringing up the person that his wife killed in a driving accident. I’ll condemn both types of politics. 2. Bush, at best, has been an ethical coward here. At worst, he’s been a dupe and an ethical coward. He promised to get to the bottom of this case. AS SOON AS HE FOUND OUT ABOUT ROVE’S INVOLVEMENT, he should have asked the prosecutor about the parameters of the public statement he could make, and have made the most forthcoming public statement legally allowed. If the federal prosecutor told him to keep quiet, he should have kept his promise to fire Rove. We know that some level of statement is now legally acceptable. Bush has not made it yet. Now, Bush either found out right away, or else he only found out recently. If he only found out recently, then he’s a dupe, being used and manipulated by his grand vizier–err, his political consultant. But I don’t think that’s the case. We know how Bush works, and if he didn’t know about the leak prior to its leakage, he damn sure called a meeting and found out about it as soon as it became news (i.e., as soon as Novak’s column starte making the rounds). It seems very likely to me that, when Bush made his statement pledging to fire whoever was responsible for the leak, he knew Rove was involved. But even if he didn’t know then, he knows now, and he’s refusing to take the honorable course. 1. Rove’s a goddamn liar. This information was given to him by a journalist, but he forgets who that journalist was? Give me a break: this is the sort of pathetic criminal bullshit that would be laughed out of the interrogation room. Of course he knows exactly how he found out the information. This became a news story the same day that Novak’s column was released, and I’m pretty sure Rove hadn’t forgotten then about his involvement or about how he got the information. Something that important, you don’t forget. Especially not if you’re an evil mastermind like Rove: the man is not stupid, and is not exactly famous for his absentmindedness. The one bright spot in this story for me is how absurd Rove’s explanations are becoming. Rove is normally very, very good at the political game, at plausible deniability. His performance of late is pathetic and laughable. I hope, dearly hope, that his time has come. His removal from the political scene won’t turn our nation’s politics into bunnies masturbating rainbows, but it’ll be a significant move toward lessening the rancor, divisiveness, and dirty-tricks in the modern political scene. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/30 "2005-07-15T23:37:50Z")
I’ll admit to siding with **Mr. Moto** here. Let’s figure out what the actual facts of the case are first. All we know ridht now is basically that he said, “yeah, I’ve heard that too.” Of course we need to figure out exactly who revealed Ms. Plame’s name in the first place, but we don’t know yet, and we still have no idea who it actually was. I’m sorry, but where I come from, “Ms. Valarie Plame, wife of Joe Wilson and a WMD’s analyst, is a covert CIA officer,” is releasing the name of a CIA officer, “yeah, I’ve heard that too [from other reporters],” isn’t leaking a name. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/31 "2005-07-15T23:55:55Z")
To hell with the usual “wait for the facts”. We’re still waiting for the facts on the Al Queda-Iran link, WMD (“we know they have them and we know where they are”) and the yellow cake uranium (which was the reason for the Rove “she’s fair game” attack. Even if Rove skates out on a technicality, he’s still a shamelss scumbag and needs to go. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/32 "2005-07-16T00:15:16Z")
> [@Pochacco](#): > > As we all know, anybody who crosses President Bush is a scummy low-life Al Qaeda lover. I have two questions: What is the timeframe for Patrick Fitzgerald’s upcoming crucifixion, and what form will his passion take? I’m willing to wager that this will never happen. How about you-- wanna place a little bet on this? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/33 "2005-07-16T00:19:37Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > All we know ridht now is basically that he said, “yeah, I’ve heard that too.” Of course we need to figure out exactly who revealed Ms. Plame’s name in the first place, but we don’t know yet, and we still have no idea who it actually was. No. We know: 1. He told reporters that he knew about this in order to discourage them from putting to much weight in Wilson’s testimony–shameless sleazebaggery. 2. He dissembled about it for years, until Cooper forced his hand. 3. Either he got away with dissembling to Bush about it for years, or else Bush has been dissembling to the public about it for years. We don’t know whether he broke the law, but we sure know that he’s a goddam liar. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/34 "2005-07-16T01:15:53Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > No. We know: > > 1. He told reporters that he knew about this in order to discourage them from putting to much weight in Wilson’s testimony–shameless sleazebaggery. > 2. He dissembled about it for years, until Cooper forced his hand. > 3. Either he got away with dissembling to Bush about it for years, or else Bush has been dissembling to the public about it for years. > > We don’t know whether he broke the law, but we sure know that he’s a goddam liar. > > Daniel We also know that the signature Rove trademark is to handle every problem by attacking and discrediting someone else. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/35 "2005-07-16T01:45:29Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > We also know that the signature Rove trademark is to handle every problem by attacking and discrediting someone else. Do you want in on the bet? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/36 "2005-07-16T01:47:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Do you want in on the bet? What are the stakes and the conditions? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/37 "2005-07-16T02:14:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Even if not Rove, this administration has put the nation’s security in jeopardy… At the risk of a hijack, I point you to the Clinton Administrations dealings with the Chinese and ICBM technology. They set the bar pretty high. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/38 "2005-07-16T02:25:50Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > At the risk of a hijack, I point you to the Clinton Administrations dealings with the Chinese and ICBM technology. They set the bar pretty high. Who are you? Karl Rove, Jr.? When things don’t go your way, misdirect, misdirect. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/39 "2005-07-16T02:30:36Z")
If Duhbya is nothing else…and trust me he isn’t. he’s loyal to his partisans. Nothing will happen to Rove. Nothing. Mark my words. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585/40 "2005-07-16T02:43:24Z")
Maybe we did jump too soon. [http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=944219](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=944219) > [@ABCNews](#): > > WASHINGTON Jul 15, 2005 — After mentioning a CIA operative to a reporter, Bush confidant **Karl Rove alerted the president’s No. 2 security adviser** about the interview … > The July 11, 2003, e-mail between Rove and then-Deputy National Security Adviser Stephen Hadley is the first showing an intelligence official knew Rove had talked to Matthew Cooper just days before the Time magazine reporter wrote an article identifying Valerie Plame as a CIA officer. … > The **White House turned the e-mail over to prosecutors, and Rove testified** to a grand jury about it last year. > Rove, Bush’s closest adviser, turned over the e-mail as soon as prosecutors opened a criminal investigation into who leaked Plame’s covert work for the CIA. … > “What it says is, Karl Rove wasn’t the leaker, he was actually the recipient of the information not the provider,” Republican National Committee chairman Ken Mehlman said on Fox News. “So there are probably a lot of folks in Washington who have prejudged this, who have rushed to judgment who are trying to smear Karl Rove.” > > Democrats, however, said that even if Rove wasn’t the leaker, someone still divulged Plame’s identity and possibly violated the law… However, the question remains - If it wasn’t Rove, who IS the leak??? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-fitzgerald-smear-countdown/312585.md?page=3)