# Patrick Henry, Winston Churchill, Charles de Gaulle and....Saddam Hussein???? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 16, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538 "2006-03-16T00:32:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/21 "2006-03-16T19:57:44Z")
> [@Steve MB](#): > > There’s some merit to that argument – but, on the other hand, there are examples of total nutcases (Kim Jong Il, Idi Amin) managing to pull it off. I think it’s very dangerous to assume even someone like KJ Il is a “nutcase”. If he were, he’d probably be more of a puppet of someone else, and I don’t know of any evidence that that is the case. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/22 "2006-03-16T22:14:48Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > You’re right. The late 1820s were the darkest period in your country’s history. nicely played ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/23 "2006-03-16T23:10:11Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Thanks. > > Are you still sticking by your claim that > I’m not exaclty sure how we’d debate that, so if you want to offer that up as an opinion, I guess there’s not much I can say other than that I don’t share that opinion. Without the phony “link to al Qaeda” claim, the administration would have been hard pressed to make the case that Saddam was a threat to the US, although it was certainly accurate to say that he was a threat to the M.E. region (if he had the means to carry out that threat). He had, afterall, attacked two countries already and lobbed misslies at Isreal during the 1st Gulf War. The biggest fear (painted by the administration) was not so much that Saddam would attack us directly, but that he would enable al Qaeda to do so. > > The guy had motives aplenty, he just didn’t have means or opportunity. > > Now, please don’t take anything that I posted above as evidence that I bought into the administrations claims. I never did. But I don’t see how those claims amount to an implication that Saddam was crazy. However, if you evidence to present in support of your opinion, I’m open to hearing it. I really must object to the use of the iran/iraq war and the Kuwait adventure as evidence of SH’s “insanity” WE endorsed the first war, and it is clear that the April Glasspie meeting prior to the Kuwait invasion was intended as an attempt by SH to get our agreement to the second. Whether he was inappropriately extrapolating from his discussions with her to a broader “ok” is up for grabs, but he at least gave some thought to the issue. Furthermore, he was demonstrably “deterrable” vis-a-vis the use of wmd against our troops (he didn’t use them…) Not quite the screamingravingloonie, don’t ya think? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/24 "2006-03-16T23:13:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hmm? Hussein never held a free a election, but I’m fairly certain he built schools and power plants, or at least they got built on his watch. > > Do you have any cite for what the Coalition forces are currently doing along those lines? As I understand it, most Iraqis still lack clean drinking water and 24-hour electric power. quite true, but while they drink dirty water in the dark, they can light a candle for the blessings of democracy… ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/25 "2006-03-16T23:35:30Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’m not exaclty sure how we’d debate that, so if you want to offer that up as an opinion, I guess there’s not much I can say other than that I don’t share that opinion. Oh, it’s definitely an opinion. Mostly formed subliminally, I suppose. I think we can agree to disagree on this; I doubt I could put together a rigorous argument on it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/26 "2006-03-17T00:07:16Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > I really must object to the use of the iran/iraq war and the Kuwait adventure as evidence of SH’s “insanity” > > WE endorsed the first war, and it is clear that the April Glasspie meeting prior to the Kuwait invasion was intended as an attempt by SH to get our agreement to the second. Whether he was inappropriately extrapolating from his discussions with her to a broader “ok” is up for grabs, but he at least gave some thought to the issue. > > Furthermore, he was demonstrably “deterrable” vis-a-vis the use of wmd against our troops (he didn’t use them…) > > Not quite the screamingravingloonie, don’t ya think? Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I can’t tell. Just to be clear, I am not arguing that he’s crazy, and I’m not arguing that the US government (either Bush or Clinton before him or Bush before him) tried to make him out as being crazy. Quite the opposite, in fact. **Frank** : I have no problem agreeing to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/27 "2006-03-17T02:53:11Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do you have any cite for what the Coalition forces are currently doing along those lines? As I understand it, most Iraqis still lack clean drinking water and 24-hour electric power. Wow. I’m not sure what you’re looking for here. Are you saying that Iraqis are worse off now than they were under Hussein? Are you saying that the US hasn’t done that much rebuilding? Or are you just curious what’s being done? My answer is complicated by the fact that the rebuilding has come through a number of agencies, including the CPA, USAID, and the Iraqis themselves. But as to whether or not Iraqis have constant electrical access, this is what [USAID](http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/electricity.html) has to say: > [@USAID](#): > > In 2002, Baghdad had access to electricity 24 hours a day; the rest of Iraq was limited to 3-6 hours of electricity daily. Currently, all 18 governorates receive roughly 13 hours of electricity daily on average, an incredible improvement for a country emerging from decades of conflict and neglect. USAID programs have added over 1,200 MW of new or rehabilitated generation capacity to the national grid, increasing availability to over 4 million Iraqis. > . . . . > Restoring and improving Iraq’s electricity supply has been USAID’s biggest and most costly challenge. In April 2003, Iraq’s usable electrical generation capacity was 2,500 MW — 58 percent of the pre-conflict level. Before the conflict, access to power was unreliable and varied greatly throughout the country. USAID is restoring electricity to homes, public facilities, and business throughout Iraq. > > USAID has helped increase electrical generation to an average daily peak of approximately 4,500 MW. However, estimated total demand in Iraq is 8,500 MW and the looting of cables, destruction of hightension towers, and sabotage of fuel lines persist. Decades of operation without regular maintenance have resulted in increased breakdown and a need for significant rehabilitation. The answer appears to be similar for [water treatment](http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/watsan.html). So things are better than they were pre-war, but still not as good as in the suburbs of Chicago. (Note – the link also includes specifics and goals, if that’s what you’re looking for. And it’s got details on their programs for dealing with agriculture, airports, bridges & roads, business skills training, civil society, community action program, Constitution, economic governance, education, elections, electricity, food security, health, local governance, marshlands, national governance, private sector development, seaport, telecommunications, transition initiatives, water & sanitation, and women. And it’s got a 38 page .pdf document from Nov. 2005 giving the highlights from their work in Iraq. And this is just one agency.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/28 "2006-03-17T03:40:23Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > But as to whether or not Iraqis have constant electrical access, this is what [USAID](http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/electricity.html) has to say:The answer appears to be similar for [water treatment](http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/watsan.html). > > So things are better than they were pre-war, but still not as good as in the suburbs of Chicago. :dubious: Yeah, well, that’s not at all what I heard on the radio last week – [http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/06/1424239&mode=thread&tid=25:](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/06/1424239&mode=thread&tid=25:) > [@](#): > > FAIZA AL-ARAJI: . . . Every day, stories of horrible – the life is horrible for Iraqis now. Iraq now is the hell. It is the land of hell. There is nothing. There’s no electricity. There’s no water. There’s no security. You can’t send your boy to the school, because you are scared. You have to change the priority of your life. What is the priority? The education of my son or the life of him? Yes, sure. The life of my son. So the people are putting their son in the houses. They will never send them to the schools or to the universities. And you can imagine what kind of life, if you want to move to your job or to your school, and there’s curfew or there is blocks of concrete barriers for the occupation and checkpoints and checkpoints, and everywhere. It is a kind of hell. You can’t go out for shopping. You can’t go for the hospital. Everything is – everything is destroyed in Iraq now. And this is for the services or the conditions on the ground. > > \ > > AMY GOODMAN: Faiza Al-Araji, you are also a civil engineer. What about the so-called reconstruction of Iraq? We’ve last heard that in the upcoming budget, the only money that has been requested for reconstruction now is for prisons. > > FAIZA AL-ARAJI: Yeah. We have heard a lot of stories about reconstruction during the six months or the first year after the war. And we were living inside Baghdad and watching for them, as an example, for the campaign of maintenance of the schools. We have heard about huge budget for the contractors from Bechtel or other American companies. But the reality on the ground that the final thing that they paid it for subcontract and subcontract, then – and a subcontract, a Iraqi one, he got it for $2,000 for each school just to put painting and to maintain the broken glasses. This is the only thing they have done. But maybe they are sending you the message or the story that we put new furniture and we put the new computers and everything was fancy. No, this is not the truth. The reality is something very different, you know? > > I have to see a lot of our – to hear about - because I’m engineer, I am in touch with engineers and with contractors. The contractors are not qualified people. If you – I am working with water treatment systems, and the people who are coming with their papers of the specification for the water treatment package for a village or a town, he don’t know what is written in the paper. Why should they give him the contract? Why should they give him the priority? Because he is a friend of them. Because he is working in the – maybe in the military bases, building for the American military force. So they trust him. And they give him the contract. He is ignorant. He don’t know what is going on, what is inside the paper and he – but they give him a huge amount of money. And when he come to ask me about the prices, I can’t give him, but I can understand he got a big budget for this small piece. And by the time I can understand there is a lot of money have been spent for the big construction of Iraq. Something like this. > > But the reality is something on the ground, that is something is like this. And you buy something in this budget, but you are the price – the real price is this thing. So you can see the money of the Iraqis have been disappeared. This is the kind of – if we are talking about the reconstruction and the corruption in the ministries and everywhere, it is a familiar story now. And what about the corruption of the billions of dollars of Iraqi people who have been out of the banks? Regarding the on-the-ground situation in Iraq, any sensible person should be ready to take the word of actual Iraqis over that of a U.S. government agency like USAID. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/29 "2006-03-17T16:36:14Z")
And I’ve also heard a lot of Iraqis who say things aren’t bad and are getting better. What’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/30 "2006-03-17T19:32:06Z")
_accurate to say that he was a threat to the M.E. region (if he had the means to carry out that threat). He had, afterall, attacked two countries already and lobbed misslies at Isreal during the 1st Gulf War_ your confusion appropriately mirrored mine…I was conflating (inappropriately…) your citation of the “middle east threat” with the idea that Saddam was a loose cannon; Hence, my reference to what seem to me to be aspects of his regional militarism that were ostensibly undertaken with our approval, or (in the Glasspie case) what he might reasonably(?) have mistaken for our approval. I wasn’t meaning to adduce these points as a rebuttal to your analysis so much as a corollary–(you might well be forgiven for construing the post as a rebuttal considering my inapposite use of the verb “object”–query to whom was I objecting…?) to further clarify (or obfuscate, take your pick) I wasn’t sure when you said that one could"say he was a threat to the ME" whether you were intending that to be an endorsement of administration claims, which, of course, habitually cite the wmd use in the iran-iraq war as evidence of his malign intent–that was a gloss which I put onto your post without any real foundation. So the “objection” I guess, was directed at some invisible adminsitration spokesman who had not been heard on the subject. not a particularly useful formulation… ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/31 "2006-03-17T23:11:08Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: Yeah, well, that’s not at all what I heard on the radio last week – [http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/06/1424239&mode=thread&tid=25:](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/06/1424239&mode=thread&tid=25:) Ahh, yes. Good ol’ Democracy Now. Nothing quite like an independent source, eh? For example, check out this “unbiased” question by Democracy Now’s reporter (emphasis added): > [@](#): > > AMY GOODMAN: Faiza Al-Araji, you are also a civil engineer. What about the _so-called reconstruction_ of Iraq? We’ve last heard that in the upcoming budget, _the only money that has been requested for reconstruction now is for prisons_. Of course, even the reporter’s subject goes on to contradict what the reporter said. As well he/she should because the reporter’s assertion is [demonstrably false](http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/activities.html). Anyone wondering if the reporter is biased need only take a gander at her interview on Hardball, which is transcripted neatly [on her own site](http://www.democracynow.org/hardball-050216.shtml): > [@](#): > > GOODMAN: I would say that we’re not trying to transform the Middle East. The Bush administration is trying to conquer the Middle East. Right back at’cha with the :dubious: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Regarding the on-the-ground situation in Iraq, any sensible person should be ready to take the word of actual Iraqis over that of a U.S. government agency like USAID. And here I was thinking that any reasonable person wouldn’t be wasting his/her time listening to Democracy Now. And why, pray tell, is this alleged “actual Iraqi” more credible than USAID? Is it because USAID isn’t actually in Iraq (which they are) or because the Iraqi knows more about the reconstruction work being done (which he does not) or because the Iraqi has no axe to grind (which he admits to having) or because his statements are inherently more reasonable than the government’s (puh-lease)? In fact, the only reason to believe the alleged Iraqi’s statements is that he says unbelievably bad things about the reconstruction effort. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/32 "2006-03-18T05:37:32Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Ahh, yes. Good ol’ Democracy Now. Nothing quite like an independent source, eh? For example, check out this “unbiased” question by Democracy Now’s reporter (emphasis added):Of course, even the reporter’s subject goes on to contradict what the reporter said. As well he/she should because the reporter’s assertion is [demonstrably false](http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/activities.html). > > Anyone wondering if the reporter is biased need only take a gander at her interview on Hardball, which is transcripted neatly [on her own site](http://www.democracynow.org/hardball-050216.shtml):Right back at’cha with the :dubious:And here I was thinking that any reasonable person wouldn’t be wasting his/her time listening to Democracy Now. > > And why, pray tell, is this alleged “actual Iraqi” more credible than USAID? Is it because USAID isn’t actually in Iraq (which they are) or because the Iraqi knows more about the reconstruction work being done (which he does not) or because the Iraqi has no axe to grind (which he admits to having) or because his statements are inherently more reasonable than the government’s (puh-lease)? In fact, the only reason to believe the alleged Iraqi’s statements is that he says unbelievably bad things about the reconstruction effort. If we need to choose between Amy Goodman and a shill for the lying sack of shit in the white house, some of us will believe amy. ymmv. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/33 "2006-03-18T07:28:58Z")
Well, at least you’re not allowing your own biases to affect your interpretation of the facts. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/34 "2006-03-18T17:55:55Z")
> [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Ahh, yes. Good ol’ Democracy Now. Nothing quite like an independent source, eh? For example, check out this “unbiased” question by Democracy Now’s reporter (emphasis added):Of course, even the reporter’s subject goes on to contradict what the reporter said. As well he/she should because the reporter’s assertion is [demonstrably false](http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/activities.html). Well, at least she **asked,** and was open to being corrected. That’s just the difference. Bill O’Reilly would have lost his temper and cut his interviewee’s mike. > [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > Anyone wondering if the reporter is biased need only take a gander at her interview on Hardball, which is transcripted neatly [on her own site](http://www.democracynow.org/hardball-050216.shtml):Right back at’cha with the :dubious: If you want to discredit Amy Goodman, pick a better example. In that particular instance she happens to be **right.** The neocons will not be satisfied with an outcome in the Middle East that resembles contemporary Europe, where all the countries are functioning democracies, and sometimes make democratic decisions to oppose U.S. policy. They want a Middle East of pro-U.S. states that lack that freedom of action. Which is for all practical purposes indistinguishable from conquest. You needn’t take Goodman’s word for any of that, just visit the PNAC website and read between lines; and you won’t have to peer very close, either. In any case, you cannot discredit Goodman by pointing out she is “biased.” Goodman, unlike the lying liars at Fox News, makes no pretense of political neutrality. On that understanding, she has at least as much credibility as Tom Brokaw or Wolf Blitzer. > [@Age Quod Agis](#): > > And why, pray tell, is this alleged “actual Iraqi” more credible than USAID? Is it because USAID isn’t actually in Iraq (which they are) or because the Iraqi knows more about the reconstruction work being done (which he does not) or because the Iraqi has no axe to grind (which he admits to having) or because his statements are inherently more reasonable than the government’s (puh-lease)? In fact, the only reason to believe the alleged Iraqi’s statements is that he says unbelievably bad things about the reconstruction effort. :rolleyes: USAID is not credible WRT to anything it says about Iraq for the same reason Paul Bremer and General Abizaid are not credible WRT to anything they say about Iraq. That should be painfully obvious to all the world by this year of the occupation. Oh, and the Iraqi quoted above is a woman, BTW. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/35 "2006-03-18T19:43:43Z")
And what to you mean by “alleged ‘actual Iraqi’”? On what basis are you suggesting Faiza al-Araji is not Iraqi? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/36 "2006-03-19T00:29:22Z")
Saddam is disliked by his own people. I don’t think they are going to start taking orders from the guy who plunged the country into endless wars and spent billions on palaces while the nation starved. I would assume alot of Iraqis know Saddam is a narcissist who could care less about the Iraqi people and who only wants to glorify himself. Besides, history is written by the victors. Saddam didn’t win. De Gaulle, Henry & Churchill all won their wars. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/37 "2006-03-19T00:35:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > On what basis are you suggesting Faiza al-Araji is not Iraqi? With that name? Finnish is my guess. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/38 "2006-03-19T02:59:17Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Saddam is disliked by his own people. I don’t think they are going to start taking orders from the guy who plunged the country into endless wars and spent billions on palaces while the nation starved. Orders, no. Suggestions, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/39 "2006-03-19T03:33:59Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Orders, no. > > Suggestions, yes. I don’t think they will. The average Iraqi may not like Americans but I’m sure he knows Saddam is saying what he is saying solely for his own benefit and will react accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538/40 "2006-03-27T09:11:13Z")
I think that if Saddam were to be televised, he might have a chance to turn his position around, and perhaps go free. I am glad that he is showing some guts. I had read somewhere that at the Nuremburg trials, Goering said something to the effect that “we should tell them all to kiss off.” As events turned out for him, at least, it couldn’t have hurt! Irrespective of what Saddam did or didn’t do, I think that there is something inherently wrong about a country invading another country, defeating it, and then ‘trying’ the vanquished leaders. Execute them, maybe, imprison them, maybe, but this ‘trial’ junk is just fluff to validate a nation’s violation of another nation’s sovereignty. hh [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-henry-winston-churchill-charles-de-gaulle-and-saddam-hussein/348538.md?page=1)