# Patrick Kane Rape Allegation **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 6, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195 "2015-08-06T22:00:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/41 "2015-08-08T16:23:28Z")
Rape is a horrible crime and it is a hard crime to get a conviction on. Many rapes go unreported and many rapists are let off for lack of adequate evidence. False accusation of rape is also a significant crime and one that no matter if found not guilty can destroy careers and more in the accused. And yes, impacts that can have major negative consequences on very big business concerns. Celebrities can be psychologically disturbed people, even those who seem as if they are kindness personified (see Cosby). Maybe athletes and politicians more than most. _And_ they can be targets for false accusations and blackmail. Play this out that it goes to trial and it is exclusively a “he said she said” case. They both agree that they had sex with him saying it was mutually consensual and she saying that she said no. Is his past difficulty with assault (sorry, “disorderly conduct”) something that should be in the trial? Is the accuser’s past sexual history and/or criminal record relevant to the trial? If a “not guilty” verdict is found based on lack of adequate evidence does occur is the possibility that he still did it enough that his career is done? Should it be? Yes, easy to say what to do “if young Mr. Kane turns out to have committed a sexual assault”, but what to do if we end up not knowing for sure? What if it ends up that we cannot know and the requirement of reasonable shadow of doubt mandates a “not guilty” verdict? (Which lets many of those who rape go free as the price to pay to limit the number of those being punished who are innocent of the charge from few to fewer.) ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/42 "2015-08-08T17:03:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes, easy to say what to do “if young Mr. Kane turns out to have committed a sexual assault”, but what to do if we end up not knowing for sure? What if it ends up that we cannot know and the requirement of reasonable shadow of doubt mandates a “not guilty” verdict? (Which lets many of those who rape go free as the price to pay to limit the number of those being punished who are innocent of the charge from few to fewer.) I agree rape is a horrible crime that is difficult to prove, but I’m not sure where you are going with your questions. If he is charged with some type of sexual assault and ultimately acquitted I don’t know that much could or should be done. Yes, it would be damaging to his public image and possibly his career. It would also be very difficult and potentially injurious to his accuser if he actually committed the act and got away with it. What are you suggesting be done in that case? Should there be looser rules of evidence to secure a conviction in cases like this? I honestly don’t know what you are trying to get at here. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/43 "2015-08-08T18:00:16Z")
[Interesting commentary about this.](http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/08/07/baffoe-patrick-kane-is-not-your-friend/?utm_medium=VPH&utm_source=topvph_sports&utm_campaign=673558) > [@DSeid](#): > > Rape is a horrible crime and it is a hard crime to get a conviction on. Many rapes go unreported and many rapists are let off for lack of adequate evidence. > > False accusation of rape is also a significant crime and one that no matter if found not guilty can destroy careers and more in the accused. And yes, impacts that can have major negative consequences on very big business concerns. > > Celebrities can be psychologically disturbed people, even those who seem as if they are kindness personified (see Cosby). Maybe athletes and politicians more than most. _And_ they can be targets for false accusations and blackmail. > > Play this out that it goes to trial and it is exclusively a “he said she said” case. They both agree that they had sex with him saying it was mutually consensual and she saying that she said no. Is his past difficulty with assault (sorry, “disorderly conduct”) something that should be in the trial? Is the accuser’s past sexual history and/or criminal record relevant to the trial? If a “not guilty” verdict is found based on lack of adequate evidence does occur is the possibility that he still did it enough that his career is done? Should it be? > > Yes, easy to say what to do “if young Mr. Kane turns out to have committed a sexual assault”, but what to do if we end up not knowing for sure? What if it ends up that we cannot know and the requirement of reasonable shadow of doubt mandates a “not guilty” verdict? (Which lets many of those who rape go free as the price to pay to limit the number of those being punished who are innocent of the charge from few to fewer.) This isn’t a court of law here. We’re not the ones who have to consider “reasonable doubt”. None of us are on the jury (he hasn’t even been charged yet, as far as I know), so I don’t know what your point is. Kane also has been accused of [assaulting women before](http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/05/10/kane-allegedly-choked-a-girl-uttered-anti-semitic-comments-in-madison/). Nothing that was proven, but you know what they say about smoke and fire. The guy has a history of being a drunken thug. (And while this may sound petty, I hope Chicago fans remember this the next time they get the urge to refer to Sidney Crosby as “whiny”. There’s a reason he’s the face of the league.) ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/44 "2015-08-08T18:17:06Z")
Not sure what part of my posts are not straightforward. I do not know if he is guilty or not. And I suspect I never will. Statistically if this goes to trial he will be found not guilty. Even if he is. Our op starts off with a presumption that women is making a false accusation. Others here seem just as willing to assume that he is guilty on the basis that an accusation has been made. If he is charged then he should be held to the same legal process as anyone else so charged and if found guilty it is easy: he does the time and his career is over. The business impact to the Hawks is a simple fact of business. But again most so charged are not found guilty and some of those are not guilty and some are but it cannot be proved. This is as it should be if we are not wrongfully imprison too many as an alternative. What happens to him then? The courts give a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise (letting some guilty individuals walk as an unavoidable result). We are indeed not the courts. Will the public give that same presumption? Will you? That interesting commentary proposes that he not be. (And that anyone who does is doing so only because of his celebrity status … “Kane is not your friend.”) ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/45 "2015-08-08T19:03:19Z")
**Guinastasia** is saying that he/she doesn’t care whether Kane committed rape. He or she wishes to convict him in the court of public opinion as a statement that “rape is bad.” ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/46 "2015-08-08T19:18:14Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > **Guinastasia** is saying that he/she doesn’t care whether Kane committed rape. He or she wishes to convict him in the court of public opinion as a statement that “rape is bad.” I thought s/he meant that we are free to speculate all we want. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/47 "2015-08-08T19:49:11Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Our op starts off with a presumption that women is making a false accusation. Others here seem just as willing to assume that he is guilty on the basis that an accusation has been made. I am willing to assume that it wouldn’t matter to the OP how much evidence there is because he has a history of saying that putative rape victims should be exposed, that most are lying, that date rape doesn’t exist, and that basically all women who accuse celebrity men of rape are golddiggers. I think the majority of the commentary has been on the OP’s habits, not the facts of the case. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/48 "2015-08-08T21:06:28Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > … I think the majority of the commentary has been on the OP’s habits, not the facts of the case. Maybe. But that does not mean that the facts of the case (limited as they are) and how people respond to them are not able to be discussed. **Guin** ’s linked “interesting commentary” explicitly makes the argument that those who respond “innocent until proven guilty” are engaging in a “garbage default setting of rushing to defend him.” It emphasizes that “should an outcome conclude in favor of Kane, the rape culture we live in and unbalanced system of law enforcement and judicial process in sexual assault cases does not mean he did nothing wrong.” He tells those who believe that an accused is innocent until proven guilty even if they are a celebrity: “You value sports over violation of the human body, and you then become no different than, say, a defender of Joe Paterno. If Patrick Kane were not famous and a name on the local news, your consideration would be vastly different.” He is right about the last part: my consideration would be different because there would be none, duh. Not famous and we wouldn’t be talking about it. As far as public reaction goes the accused would be left alone; a charge would be brought or not, if brought a trial had, if guilty a sentence served. And if no charge brought the person would be left alone. Not so in this case. Again, I do not pretend to know what the balance should be. He may be guilty of a horrific crime and such is the case even if never charged or if charged and acquitted. I however am not willing to presume so on the basis of a leaked report of an accusation, and evidence of having had sex (if such is the result of the rape kit) is not enough to prove rape either. He may actually be not guilty of anything more than very poor judgement in sexual partners. I do not see a place for supporting Kane or for condemning him and think that comments that presume his guilt as off base as those that presume it is a false accusation. I honestly don’t know how it should be handled if he is charged and found not guilty, knowing that that does not prove he did not do it. I asked “what to do if we end up not knowing for sure?” precisely because I do not know what I think is the right answer myself … risking having an innocent man’s career ruined by a false accusation or risking having a guilty man return to public adulation … both seem pretty unpalatable. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/49 "2015-08-08T21:10:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Maybe. But that does not mean that the facts of the case (limited as they are) and how people respond to them are not able to be discussed. I’m guessing you want a thread that the OP didn’t start. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/50 "2015-08-08T21:26:48Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It wasn’t a US-centric OP. Any true Canadian would know instantly what this is all about. … Yes, and I must say, that as a true Canadian, I was pleasantly surprised to find out that Mr. Kane is an American-born hockey player. I had always assumed he was Canadian. It gives me comfort to know that he’s American. Flame me if you will, but it’s how I feel. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/51 "2015-08-08T21:58:35Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I’m guessing you want a thread that the OP didn’t start. Or at least a discussion about the subject that no one seems interested in having. Real discussions breaking out in Pit threads have happened on occasion. Not this time I guess. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2015, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/52 "2015-08-08T23:07:57Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Yes, and I must say, that as a true Canadian, I was pleasantly surprised to find out that Mr. Kane is an American-born hockey player. I had always assumed he was Canadian. It gives me comfort to know that he’s American. Flame me if you will, but it’s how I feel. Well, then I hope the gal he raped was Canadian. I am TOTALLY kidding! This is a moron thread by a moron, and it deserves derision. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/53 "2015-08-09T00:16:33Z")
> [@kambuckta](#): > > Okay…I know I’ve whinged about this in the past, and I know that FOR THE MOST PART this is a US-centric board, but there’s plenty of us who DON’T live in the US and have no idea who or what the fuck you are talking about! > > It would be sweet if you could give a brief synopsis of the case when you post your OP…really, it’s not a big ask. > > :rolleyes: This started out in the Game Room. Anybody who saw it there would instantaneously know who he is. It got moved here so people could give the OP and his follow-ons the beating they rightly deserve. That said, next time just Google it. It would have taken you less time than it did to register your indignity. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/54 "2015-08-09T00:38:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Or at least a discussion about the subject that no one seems interested in having. Real discussions breaking out in Pit threads have happened on occasion. Not this time I guess. Carry on. There have been quite a few threads discussing rape accusations, no? _This_ thread got the response that it did because of the history of the OP. He’s written essentially the same post any number of times. That’s why it got moved to the Pit. If you want to discuss the impact of rape accusations on the lives of the accused, you’d be much better off starting a new thread, one not immediately poisoned by the misogyny of dalej42. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/55 "2015-08-09T03:13:00Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > **Guinastasia** is saying that he/she doesn’t care whether Kane committed rape. He or she wishes to convict him in the court of public opinion as a statement that “rape is bad.” > [@j666](#): > > I thought s/he meant that we are free to speculate all we want. Pretty much. Not to mention I’m judging based on what I know about Kane, PLUS speaking out against the type of people like the OP, who care more about how this affects his sports than, you know, the actual victims. But of course, people like **dale42** and **Stringbean** know better. And don’t get too cocky, **Leaffan**. It’s not like you don’t have quite a few assholes up north. The name Bobby Hull ring a bell? (deadbeat dad, wife beater) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kolak_of_twilo/32/73_2.png) [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolak_of_Twilo)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/56 "2015-08-09T03:21:08Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Or at least a discussion about the subject that no one seems interested in having. Real discussions breaking out in Pit threads have happened on occasion. Not this time I guess. Carry on. I have no idea how you can expect a “real discussion” about this given how paltry the facts are at this point. The Hamburg, NY police have said next to nothing about this case other than that an investigation is underway and it will take an extended period of time to complete. [Even this brief article](http://patch.com/illinois/beverly-mtgreenwood/reporter-who-broke-patrick-kane-rape-story-says-situation-ominous-heinous) saying it looks “ominous” for Kane because of the “heinous” nature of whatever occurred is absurdly lacking facts about what happened. Once something is made public it should be easier to have an actual discussion. And I get that because he is a highly paid, popular and good-looking athlete this entire thing could go sideways, but I still don’t understand what there is to discuss at this point. Other than the OP is a total dumbass based on his posts on similar topics in the past, but that has already been pointed out by others. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/57 "2015-08-10T12:17:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > And don’t get too cocky, **Leaffan**. It’s not like you don’t have quite a few assholes up north. The name Bobby Hull ring a bell? (deadbeat dad, wife beater) 😉 Ditto! A Leaf’s fan should\*\* never\*\* be throwing stones after the Gordon Stuckless scandal. ---
**Author:** ![Anonymous\_611029db27c9df0d53a8d56482d7eac3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Anonymous\_611029db27c9df0d53a8d56482d7eac3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anonymous_611029db27c9df0d53a8d56482d7eac3)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/58 "2015-08-10T14:08:27Z")
There has been all sorts of **fantastically** irresponsible reporting on this by the Buffalo News and the local television stations. [This article](http://www.buffalonews.com/feed/new-details-emerge-in-allegations-against-nhl-star-patrick-kane-20150809), which presents an “interview” with presumably **dale42** relative Mark Croce, pretty much says the alleged victim deserved it. You cannot watch a news broadcast here without some South Buffalo native [blowing smoke](http://wivb.com/2015/08/07/kane-case-shocks-south-buffalo/) about how he would never do such a thing. I’m all for due process - he is innocent until proven guilty - but this biased reporting is pure bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@No\_umlaut\_for\_U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/No_umlaut_for_U)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/59 "2015-08-10T15:27:49Z")
Long-time Blackhawk fan here who is absolutely furious with Kane. The only way he’s dodging this bullet is if somehow the incident can be spun as consensual, and I’m burning my sweater if it is. Once the alleged bites entered the picture, I firmly believe that it wasn’t. Kane kept up pretenses of normalcy until he got the huge contract which will sink the team. What I want to know is, assuming the worst for Kane, how are the Hawks going to cope? Are they still on the hook for a $10MM+ cap hit if either a) Kane isn’t allowed to leave the US during the investigation, or b) he is forbidden to leave New York. Literally, the Blackhawks are out of cap space and haven’t signed two players left, both forwards. Doom, I say, doom. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2015, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195/60 "2015-08-10T15:39:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Leaffan](#): > > > > I’m unfamiliar with the OP. I know all about hockey and rape though. > > Of the two subjects, I think you made the right call about which one to reference in your screen name. Coffee. All over my keyboard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patrick-kane-rape-allegation/727195.md?page=4)