# Patriot missle shoots down British plane.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553 "2003-03-23T14:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/1 "2003-03-23T14:46:39Z")
[http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/23/1048354477262.html](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/23/1048354477262.html) How does something like this happen? The plane wasn’t flying near the speed of a missle I’m sure. They don’t use transponders? ---
**Author:** ![ChalkPit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@ChalkPit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChalkPit)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/2 "2003-03-23T15:24:28Z")
Early days yet - the truth will out eventually. I just hope this isnt the start of a series of friendly fire incidents which cost Britain half her ground casualties in the last Gulf War. We have also lost an ITN news crew, allegedly to friendly fire. NOT GOOD. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/3 "2003-03-23T15:29:57Z")
If I had been living in a gutter (or somewhere without news) and then came back and read the news [RAF Tornado downed by US missile](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2877349.stm) I’d think “WTF! Is Britain at war with America?!” But I haven’t, so I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/4 "2003-03-23T15:31:44Z")
And, It is looking that way **ChalkPit**. there are 6 times as many Americans as Brits. yet there are more than twice as many british deaths (last time I checked) None of those from battle! ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/5 "2003-03-23T15:34:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lobsang \* > \*\*read the news [RAF Tornado downed by US missile](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2877349.stm) \*\* Meant “saw the title” not “read the news” ---
**Author:** ![Deptford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Deptford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deptford)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/6 "2003-03-23T15:43:21Z")
Inevitable really. I bet hundreds of planes were shot down by there own side in WW2 and thousands if not tens of thousands killed by there own artillery. Friendly fire has been killing people since the dawn of warfare and always will.You add together lethal weapons and humanitys capacity for error and it’s going to happen no matter what precautions you take. ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/7 "2003-03-23T15:49:18Z")
Yes **Deptford** It is of course inevitable. But have there ever been any wars other than Gulf wars where Friendly fire is responsible for the **majority** of total deaths on one side? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/8 "2003-03-23T15:59:54Z")
> [@](#): > > And, It is looking that way ChalkPit. there are 6 times as many Americans as Brits. yet there are more than twice as many british deaths (last time I checked) None of those from battle! Weren’t most of them from the Brits colliding two helicopters? ---
**Author:** ![Lobsang](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobsang/32/4067_2.png) [@Lobsang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobsang)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/9 "2003-03-23T16:04:13Z")
Are there more than 16 UK deaths? If not, then yes **treis** 8 died in the collision. Who were the pilots? Who’s job is it to co-ordinate landings and take offs? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/10 "2003-03-23T19:14:28Z")
To address the OP… > [@](#): > > **How does something like this happen?** They don’t know yet. [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2878565.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2878565.stm) > [@](#): > > The Patriot system is in the Gulf to protect Kuwait and coalition forces from incoming missiles. > > UK Defence Secretary Geoff Hoon, who sent his sympathies to the families of the crew, said there were a set of procedures in place to defend British and coalition forces. > > “Sadly on this occasion they have not worked and we are conducting urgent reviews, both of the operation of missile batteries as well as of our own aircraft to ensure that this cannot happen again,” he told the BBC. > [@](#): > > \*\*The plane wasn’t flying near the speed of a missle I’m sure. \*\* [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/2868569.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/2868569.stm) > [@](#): > > The Patriot missile defence system is designed to detect and destroy incoming enemy tactical ballistic missiles, cruise missiles **or aircraft.** It comprises a radar, control centre and associated power supply and communications towers, and launchers on trucks. > > Automatic fire > > The “engagement control station” has three operators, with two radar consoles and a radio link. > > The system can be automated, although an operator is able to override it. > > When the control computer has decided the best time to launch, it tells a launcher to fire a missile or missiles - typically two might be fired at a target in rapid succession because one alone does not guarantee a hit. > > The five-metre-long missiles are supersonic within moments of leaving the launcher, having taken their initial course from the control computer, and accelerate to five times the speed of sound. > > \< snip \> > > The Patriot missile homes on an electronic signal “painted” on the target by the radar, and relays its position in relation to the target back to the radar and on to the control centre. > > Updated flight instructions are sent back up to the missile to guide it to the target. The computer can adjust the missile’s fuse, depending on the target, to decide the best moment to detonate the 198lb (90kg) warhead. > > \< snip \> > > Patriots went into use in 1981 but came to fame during the 1991 Gulf War - when they had limited success against Iraqi Scud missiles. > > In one instance - now notorious of what can go wrong with computer software - 28 American soldiers were killed when a Scud hit a barracks in Saudi Arabia, because a software fault in the defending Patriot system meant it could not work properly. > > The error meant its tracking system was half a second out - during which time a Scud travels half a kilometre. > > Three years ago the US Army set about replacing “hundreds” of Patriots after identifying a problem with some of their components having deteriorated over time. So it’s possible it was either a mechanical malfunction or a software bug, God help us. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/11 "2003-03-23T19:36:45Z")
I was an Air Defense Missile Officer in combat. These procedures were in place ten years ago, and I have no reason to believe they have changed. Returning Allied aircraft have specific procedures to follow (RTF, or Return to Force, Procedures) which include squawking the IFF transponder, flying between certain altitudes and in certain “corridors”, and between certain speeds. In cases where that is not possible, they are to follow certain manuvers that show they are not a threat. Pilots do not like to squawk IFF because it paints a big friggin return when challenged by EITHER side, but they are SUPPOSED to turn it back on when coming home. Likewise, the missile battery has certain rules of engagement IT follows. In WEAPONS HOLD - they do not fire except in self defense. In WEAPONS TIGHT - they fire on targets positively identified as hostile. In WEAPONS FREE - they fire on targets NOT positively identified as friendly. Unless the Patriot Battery screwed up BIG time, I would lay odds the RTF procedures were not being followed by the aircraft. That is not to say the pilot screwed up, the missile battery certainly could have screwed up. ---
**Author:** ![Barks\_dog\_food](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c68b51/32.png) [@Barks\_dog\_food](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barks_dog_food)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/12 "2003-03-23T19:41:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > \*\*[http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/23/1048354477262.html](http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/03/23/1048354477262.html) > How does something like this happen? The plane wasn’t flying near the speed of a missle I’m sure. They don’t use transponders? \*\* I spent my year as a conscript with a MSAM battery in the Royal Norwegian airforce. There are many ways this could happen even though much of the training is to make sure it doesn’t. We never killed a friendly in sims. AAA recognises friendly a/c in two ways. 1. Transponder code or IFF(identefy friend or foe) These codes change often and a/c will often switch the IFF off when going into enemy airspace. If the pilot or someone on the ground use the wrong codes or the pilot forgot to switch on his IFF the plane could have been identified as an enemy. However, I find this unlikely. 2. By having roads in friendly airspace where a friendly a/c flies at an predetermined speed and altitude. These also change often( location, speed and altitude). IIRC this is the prefered way to ID a a/c and if you have the right IFF but fly wrong you will be shot down. A damaged a/c or a careless pilot could fly wrong but I doubt if a pilot would risk his life like that and a damaged a/c should get special treatment(the air controller giving them a do not shoot zone). If they were realy unlucky they could could come on the radar screen just after a missile and the operator might fire thinking they were a missile. I don’t know if Patriot missiles can be stopped when they are tracking a target. I know we couldn’t on NASAMS and that they could on HAWK. An unlikely scenario is that 2 Patriots were fired at an incomming missile, one destroys the missile and the other goes hunting for another target, I know AMRAAM could do this. My best guess is that the pilot didn’t fly correctly in one of the lanes or flied into a free fire zone. Or that the operators on the ground lost it. ---
**Author:** ![legion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/838e76/32.png) [@legion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legion)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/13 "2003-03-23T21:29:22Z")
This is what I heard on one of the 24 hour TV news channels. The Tornado was shot down shortly after the incident when the US soldier threw grenades into his comrades tents. Immediately after the grenade attack, it wasn’t clear where the attack came from. US forces assumed they where under attack from emeny forces outside their compound and adopted an “aggressive defence” posture. I’m guessing that the Patriot Missile operator over-road his systems fail safes and - perhaps in panic - over reacted and fired at the first target he saw. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/14 "2003-03-24T10:35:25Z")
hmm - without being able to quote chapter and vers, **legion** I am pretty clear in myself that news reports were reporting that the grenade thrower was a U.S. person, before this Patriot/Tornado incident. ☹ Q: How do you get 30 Brits into a telephone box? A: Tell them it’s safer than a Tornado ☹ ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/15 "2003-03-24T10:41:00Z")
**Legion** , this is exactly how I saw it reported on Sky News - it showed the troops getting into battle stations following the ‘incident’, then shortly afterwards launching the Patriot. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/16 "2003-03-24T11:21:27Z")
It’s possible that there was a failure of the IFF equipment - no response is generally regarded automatically as hostile. ---
**Author:** ![legion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/838e76/32.png) [@legion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legion)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/17 "2003-03-24T12:08:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Celyn \* > > Q: How do you get 30 Brits into a telephone box? > > A: Tell them it’s safer than a Tornado > > ☹ \*\* Gee, your a real funny guy. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Deptford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Deptford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deptford)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/18 "2003-03-24T12:21:58Z")
It’s not even as if the “Joke” makes any sense ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/19 "2003-03-24T12:55:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*It’s possible that there was a failure of the IFF equipment - no response is generally regarded automatically as hostile. \*\* I see it differently. No response identifies it as a Bogey (Unknown) rather than Bandit (Hostile). Of course I am hearing reports that the Patriot was on “automatic”, and since SCUDs do not carry transponders, it leads me to believe they were under weapons control states that allowed firing on Unknowns. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2003, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriot-missle-shoots-down-british-plane/163553/20 "2003-03-25T07:39:20Z")
My mistake, you’re correct - but depending, IIRC, on the situation, a bogey can be treated the same as a bandit (ie if it’s on an attack vector).