# Patriotism, a "meaningless ritual"? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 18, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895 "2010-05-18T16:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/1 "2010-05-18T16:12:44Z")
I know other Dopers here, from the atheist crowd, have refused to bow their heads when their group is saying grace, or participate in a silent prayer (which I have no problem with, no one should be forced to do things they don’t believe in), and some have called it a “meaningless ritual” to explain their actions (which makes sense, as God would have no meaning to an atheist). I did recall this morning, though, that some might consider standing for the national anthem, removing your hat, hand on heart, facing the flag, etc., as another “meaningless ritual”. Sure, you’re a citizen of your country and all, but what’s the point of actually doing the things that I outlined earlier, one might argue. Do you? ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/2 "2010-05-18T16:22:00Z")
Well, it’s not meaningless if it has meaning to you. Standing for the national anthem has meaning to me. I love my country and acknowledge its history, and the work that was required (both in terms of blood spilled and hours logged in congress) to make it happen. I have a sense of reverence for what a bunch of people working together can achieve in the interest of the common good. While I feel there is a lot we could do to improve the state of things, and should do to improve the state of things, my big-picture view of America is that being a citizen is great and I love living here. Leaving aside all the random luxuries we take for granted, we have some absolutely stunning landscapes. This is my home. Of course I have pride in it. I wouldn’t expect anyone for whom those rituals have no meaning to participate. Not everyone feels the need to externalize their deepest values in such a way, either. I tend to love tradition and ritual, particularly if I can attach meaning to it. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/3 "2010-05-18T16:26:44Z")
I’m an other. I do it for the same reason I bow my head and say amen at the end of prayers - so as not to stand out. I don’t do more then the minimum, for example no hand over my heart but I’ll stand and face the same direction as everyone else during the national anthem. i don’t think America notices anything so as long as the people around me don’t get bent out of shape by my lack of patriotism I’m good. ---
**Author:** ![kenner116](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecb155/32.png) [@kenner116](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenner116)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/4 "2010-05-18T16:33:20Z")
I feel uncomfortable participating in group events where everyone is mindlessly doing the same thing. Whether it is everyone reciting a prayer in church, or standing with hand over heart for the anthem, or chanting at an Obama rally, I just find it creepy. If I take part in it, I feel like I am no longer an individual, just a part of a collective group that I have no control over. If I don’t take part, I feel alienated and a sense that I do not belong. ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/5 "2010-05-18T16:33:44Z")
Meaningless ritual. I’ll stand for the national anthem and pledge out of courtesy to the people for whom \*does \*have meaning. Standing or not, I do \*not \*recite the pledge or do the hand-over-the-heart thing. I find the “under God” clause un-necessary and offensive, and the whole thing sounds like the kind of loyalty oath that so-called patriots were always quick to criticize when imposed by Communist governments. It’s distasteful at best, an affront to the basic principles of free speech, etc. at worst. I also won’t stand for the playing of patriotic tunes such as “God Bless America,” although I have been at events where people did. I sing the national anthem to the best of my ability. I don’t think the text makes much sense in terms of actual American history, but I don’t find it outright offensive. The tune was a stupid choice, but at least it’s equally un-singable by everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/6 "2010-05-18T16:51:14Z")
I sing along. But only because I like singing. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/7 "2010-05-18T16:53:09Z")
Of course I stand with hand over heart and hat off for the Anthem. Doing otherwise is gauche. In the interest of full disclosure, I’m a veteran. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/8 "2010-05-18T16:54:43Z")
[insert traditional 3rd option for answers that don’t fit nicely in the other 2, here] We don’t put our hand over our heart in Canada. But I feel patriotic enough to fully embrace and respect Oh Canada. ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/9 "2010-05-18T16:58:45Z")
British here, where overt displays of patriotism are deemed a little extremist, unless it’s during a football match or a royal wedding. And we certainly don’t do the ‘hand on heart’ thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/10 "2010-05-18T17:01:22Z")
> [@cwthree](#): > > Meaningless ritual. I’ll stand for the national anthem and pledge out of courtesy to the people for whom \*does \*have meaning. > > Standing or not, I do \*not \*recite the pledge or do the hand-over-the-heart thing. Exactly my stance. I dislike it, but will stand as a courtesy and show of respect. I don’t do hands on the heart, recite, pledge or sing. And for the last you all can thank me - my singing voice can cause grown men to weep. In a bad way. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/11 "2010-05-18T17:06:28Z")
\*\* > [@](#): > > Yes, I stand for the anthem, put my hand over my heart, whole nine yards \*\* That is not patriotism… or at least, not what I would like that word to stand for. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/12 "2010-05-18T17:19:32Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Of course I stand with hand over heart and hat off for the Anthem. Doing otherwise is gauche. We also would have accepted “sinister.” ---
**Author:** ![dhkendall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a9adbd/32.png) [@dhkendall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dhkendall)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/13 "2010-05-18T17:20:45Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > I feel uncomfortable participating in group events where everyone is mindlessly doing the same thing. Whether it is everyone reciting a prayer in church, or standing with hand over heart for the anthem, or chanting at an Obama rally, I just find it creepy. If I take part in it, I feel like I am no longer an individual, just a part of a collective group that I have no control over. If I don’t take part, I feel alienated and a sense that I do not belong. This is what I pictured would be the prevailing attitude at the SDMB (where we usually don’t do things because other people are doing them), hense the reason for the poll in the first place. > [@Leaffan](#): > > [insert traditional 3rd option for answers that don’t fit nicely in the other 2, here] > > We don’t put our hand over our heart in Canada. But I feel patriotic enough to fully embrace and respect Oh Canada. I know, I’m a Canadian too. 😉 But I worded it the way I did recognizing that a majority of Dopers are American, if “hand on heart” doesn’t apply due to nationality, but the rest does, feel free to click “yes”. Yes, the fact that I did something simply because the majority is that gives you a feel for my answer. Also, I’m an anthematologist, so, full disclosure and all … 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/14 "2010-05-18T17:37:35Z")
I stand, I sing, I recite the pledge, I remove my hat, I place my hand over my heart - the whole bit. Note - I spent a bit of time in the military, and currently serve as a Boy Scout leader. This was ingrained into me as reflex, but now it means a lot more to me. I spend a fair amount of my free time on displays of patriotism / respect / honoring like this. In the last month: Two formal flag ceremonies (one at a school, one for a basketball game) Weekly flag ceremony (Troop meeting) Flag retirement ceremony (Boy Scout campout) ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/15 "2010-05-18T17:47:47Z")
That’s a very dichotomous poll. I answered #3. I stand respectfully, but no hand over the heart. The pledge is something different, but I can’t remember the last time I did that. I would do [a Roman salute](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Pledge_salue.jpg), but that makes people uncomfortable for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/16 "2010-05-18T17:52:47Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Exactly my stance. I dislike it, but will stand as a courtesy and show of respect. I don’t do hands on the heart, recite, pledge or sing. > > And for the last you all can thank me - my singing voice can cause grown men to weep. In a bad way. Same here, including the voice. Well, I’ll still sing sometimes, because I like to sing no matter how horrific I sound. And “God Bless America” can bite me. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/17 "2010-05-18T18:05:36Z")
I stand. I don’t put my hand on my heart, I don’t pledge an oath, and I don’t sing, although I might pretend just to avoid dirty looks. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/18 "2010-05-18T18:11:21Z")
I do it because everyone else does it. But I always get this twinge of disgust when I feel like I’m forced to say or do something. That includes fishing for compliments or even saying “talk to you later” on the phone. Slightly hijacking, my mom’s the same way. We don’t do those closing phone conversation lines like saying “all right” a hundred times or “ttyl” or “I’ll see you tomorrow”. It’s: Her- “So we went to the…” Me- “I have to go.” Her- “Bye.” ::Click:: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotGrrrl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9dc877/32.png) [@PatriotGrrrl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotGrrrl)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/19 "2010-05-18T18:42:35Z")
I stand for the anthem, put my hand over my heart, whole nine yards **BECAUSE** there is no reason why I have to. One of the things I love about my country is that we do not require anyone to pretend that they love it. (Well, not the\* whole\* nine yards. I don’t say the pledge of allegiance, but I do stand respectfully for it.) ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895/20 "2010-05-18T19:05:46Z")
Data point that may interest only me: At least two local judges regularly start court by requiring all present to remain standing and recite the Pledge of Allegiance before the judge calls the docket. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/patriotism-a-meaningless-ritual/539895.md?page=2)